HELP !!! fellow dopewars members in the US

[THE LAST DRAGON!!!]

ISRA Alert:
TOTAL COOK COUNTY GUN BAN CLEARS FIRST HURDLE

Rabid gun-grabbers on the Cook County Board came one step closer last week to instituting a total ban on firearm ownership in the county – except for police and military personnel.

Introduced by Commissioner William Beavers, the so-called “Safe Streets/Weapons Registration Ordinance” appears on the surface to be some sort of gun registration scheme. However, closer examination reveals that the only people who could comply with the registration requirements would be Chicago residents who had previously registered their guns with the city. Everyone else in Cook County would have to turn in their guns to the police. The ordinance would certainly ban all handguns as the ordinance disallows registration of handguns that do not have a “chamber load” indicator. Few, if any, handguns could comply with this requirement, so they would have to be surrendered to the police.

The full text of Beavers’ proposed ordinance may be found here. To learn more about William Beavers, click this link: http://www.co.cook.il.us/district04.htm .

William Beavers is an enemy to our Constitution and an enemy to all freedom-loving people of the United States. Call him at (312) 603-2065 and also call his other office at (773) 731-1515 and tell them exactly what you think of Beavers and his plan to disarm law-abiding citizens.

Another gun-hater on the Cook County Board is Larry Suffredin. Suffredin has fielded a proposed ordinance that would shut down all gun shops in the county. You may read about that ordinance by clicking here.

Larry Suffredin is an enemy to our Constitution and an enemy to all freedom-loving people of the United States. For full information on Larry Suffredin, click this link: http://www.co.cook.il.us/district13.htm . Call Suffredin at 847-864-1209 and 312-603-6383 and tell them exactly what you think of Larry Suffredin’s plan to punish law-abiding gun owners.

Even if you don’t live in Cook County, or even if you don’t live in Illinois for that matter, call anyway. Freedom is at stake here.

In addition to calling these gun-hating stooges, please do the following:

1. Post this alert to any and all Internet bulletin boards of which you are a member.

2. Send this alert to all your gun owning friends and ask them to call Beavers and Suffredin too!

Remember – preservation of our 2nd Amendment rights is a cultural imperative. Gun control is a disease; you are the cure!

Posted Tue Dec 11 23:30:07 CST 2007

[Aeon]

"IF ASSHOLES WERE AIRPLANES ,THE WORLD WOULD BE AN AIRPORT!!!"

this in his signature seems ironic right now...

[Mitch]

ISRA Alert:
TOTAL COOK COUNTY GUN BAN CLEARS FIRST HURDLE

Rabid gun-grabbers on the Cook County Board came one step closer last week to instituting a total ban on firearm ownership in the county – except for police and military personnel.

Introduced by Commissioner William Beavers, the so-called “Safe Streets/Weapons Registration Ordinance” appears on the surface to be some sort of gun registration scheme. However, closer examination reveals that the only people who could comply with the registration requirements would be Chicago residents who had previously registered their guns with the city. Everyone else in Cook County would have to turn in their guns to the police. The ordinance would certainly ban all handguns as the ordinance disallows registration of handguns that do not have a “chamber load” indicator. Few, if any, handguns could comply with this requirement, so they would have to be surrendered to the police.

The full text of Beavers’ proposed ordinance may be found here. To learn more about William Beavers, click this link: http://www.co.cook.il.us/district04.htm .

William Beavers is an enemy to our Constitution and an enemy to all freedom-loving people of the United States. Call him at (312) 603-2065 and also call his other office at (773) 731-1515 and tell them exactly what you think of Beavers and his plan to disarm law-abiding citizens.

Another gun-hater on the Cook County Board is Larry Suffredin. Suffredin has fielded a proposed ordinance that would shut down all gun shops in the county. You may read about that ordinance by clicking here.

Larry Suffredin is an enemy to our Constitution and an enemy to all freedom-loving people of the United States. For full information on Larry Suffredin, click this link: http://www.co.cook.il.us/district13.htm . Call Suffredin at 847-864-1209 and 312-603-6383 and tell them exactly what you think of Larry Suffredin’s plan to punish law-abiding gun owners.

Even if you don’t live in Cook County, or even if you don’t live in Illinois for that matter, call anyway. Freedom is at stake here.

In addition to calling these gun-hating stooges, please do the following:

1. Post this alert to any and all Internet bulletin boards of which you are a member.

2. Send this alert to all your gun owning friends and ask them to call Beavers and Suffredin too!

Remember – preservation of our 2nd Amendment rights is a cultural imperative. Gun control is a disease; you are the cure!

Posted Tue Dec 11 23:30:07 CST 2007

Stop being such a dipshit. Guns aren't a necessity!

[steff]

We've come to understand that it's pointless to argue with a Yank over gun ownership though super-d-man.

[THE LAST DRAGON!!!]

well for one read the title in the " U.S. !!!! " and guns are a necessity to protect yourself and family from them scum of earth. such as crackheads ,thieves,child molesters,rapists. how would you feel if one of your family had something terrible happen to them and it could have been prevented by the use of a firearm? , im trying to stand up for what we have a right too. wouldnt you ? or do you live in a communist country? so keep your bullshit comments for the insult section im just looking for help from my fellow americans and fellow gun owners who feel the right to protect their "2nd amendment rights to bear arms.."or in this case ownership of. espically now at the time of crisis in the world we live in. so stop your crying and wipe your tears just because you cant own a gun in your demented little land there Mickey. go back to your bar stool while guys like me put our lives on the line to make the world a safe place to live for people like u Suzie homemaker. GOODNITE ELVIS HAS.... LEFT THE BUILDING!!!!!

[Beli]

We've come to understand that it's pointless to argue with a Yank over gun ownership though super-d-man.

yep pretty pointless. a gun ban will only take guns away for registered owners. the illegal guns will continue. until the government can figure a way to take the guns from criminals, they need to stop trying to take them law abiding citizens.

[Asshole]

well for one read the title in the " U.S. !!!! " and guns are a necessity to protect yourself and family from them scum of earth. such as crackheads ,thieves,child molesters,rapists. how would you feel if one of your family had something terrible happen to them and it could have been prevented by the use of a firearm? , im trying to stand up for what we have a right too. wouldnt you ? or do you live in a communist country? so keep your bullshit comments for the insult section im just looking for help from my fellow americans and fellow gun owners who feel the right to protect their "2nd amendment rights to bear arms.."or in this case ownership of. espically now at the time of crisis in the world we live in. so stop your crying and wipe your tears just because you cant own a gun in your demented little land there Mickey. go back to your bar stool while guys like me put our lives on the line to make the world a safe place to live for people like u Suzie homemaker. GOODNITE ELVIS HAS.... LEFT THE BUILDING!!!!!

every other country gets along fine without a gun to protect thier family, if guns are not being imported/made for the law abiding (and not all of them are) citizens then there will be no guns to be stolen and used illegally anyway


As for the first post whats wrong with an indicator that the chamber is loaded, by my understanding this means you could tell if a robber is bluffing, or in turn they can tell you yourself have a loaded gun too making them in some cases keep thier distance, that surley will cut the crime rate

[Beli]

every other country gets along fine without a gun to protect thier family, if guns are not being imported/made for the law abiding (and not all of them are) citizens then there will be no guns to be stolen and used illegally anyway


you live on an island. in case you missed it... the US has a tiny border problem. tunnels coming from Mexico and all that stuff.

[swiss miss]

you live on an island. in case you missed it... the US has a tiny border problem. tunnels coming from Mexico and all that stuff.

we have a tunnel to france - i can tell you its a right job keeping all those pesky frenchies out :hehe:

[Mitch]

you live on an island. in case you missed it... the US has a tiny border problem. tunnels coming from Mexico and all that stuff.

So Mexicans are to blame for all of the armed robberies?


well for one read the title in the " U.S. !!!! " and guns are a necessity to protect yourself and family from them scum of earth. such as crackheads ,thieves,child molesters,rapists. how would you feel if one of your family had something terrible happen to them and it could have been prevented by the use of a firearm? , im trying to stand up for what we have a right too. wouldnt you ? or do you live in a communist country? so keep your bullshit comments for the insult section im just looking for help from my fellow americans and fellow gun owners who feel the right to protect their "2nd amendment rights to bear arms.."or in this case ownership of. espically now at the time of crisis in the world we live in. so stop your crying and wipe your tears just because you cant own a gun in your demented little land there Mickey. go back to your bar stool while guys like me put our lives on the line to make the world a safe place to live for people like u Suzie homemaker. GOODNITE ELVIS HAS.... LEFT THE BUILDING!!!!!

I'd feel worse if one of my family shot themselves in the head accidently/deliberately with my firearm.

I don't want to own a gun in the first place, so that argument is out the window.

Are you in the Army? If not, you're putting your life on the line to save some of your family's jewellery and appliances some thief may want to steal. Stop being such a moron.

Nothing will make this world a safe place. Shit happens all the time, if someone really wants to kill you, they will. People like you are making the world an unsafer place to live.

If you really want to make the world a better place, start with your own country. Give people the advice and resources to make something of their lives and escape poverty. No more resorting to stealing your shit and shooting you when you pull a gun on them.

[Beli]

we have a tunnel to france - i can tell you its a right job keeping all those pesky frenchies out :hehe:

hell yeah!! they smell awful.

and D-ass i was leaning toward the Canadian side :hehe: actually most of the illegal guns are smuggled in via boat.

[Aeon]

And guitar cases from mexico... :D

[Mitch]

hell yeah!! they smell awful.

and D-ass i was leaning toward the Canadian side :hehe: actually most of the illegal guns are smuggled in via boat.

Then ban boats worldwide..

[Colonel Sanders]

Guns are fun. They help the bad guys as well as the good.

They have been practically used as small firearms since the 1500's. However more or less they have always been about war and killing, unlike something such as Nuclear Fusion which was first developed as a massive Hydrogen Bomb in 1952 but has since proved to be a economically sound energy source in todays world..guns on the other had have not changed at all, they are still for killing one way or another.

And since these days governments do have the ability to ban firearms from the general public, I fully support that it should be done in the U.S. as well.

[vixen]

Guns are a pointless thing, they are NOT a necessity they are a stupidity!

[Zeus]

I'm gonna run around with my bow and and start winging arrows at ppl if we don't ban guns. I want every knife you ppl have, I don't want all you crazies randomly stabbing ppl. While we are at it, lets ban all form of transporation, automobiles are fucking deadly as hell.

[Spork!!!]

Keep the guns.
Charge $500 each for bullets.
Watch gun-crime and wars stop almost immediatly. ;-]

[Puppy Dogs and Ice Cream]

easy fix get a gun and shoot the politicians sponsering it

[hoos]

I'm not sure how I feel about guns in the US. I've personally never seen a firearm smaller than a rifle, not in a Police Officer's possession. I don't believe they are a necessity, yet I don't believe they should be banned from those who can control themselves with them.

Obviously stricter security needs to be taken on selling guns. I read somewhere just a few days ago how a law in Virginia is trying to be passed so that people actually have to perform background checks when selling guns at gun shows. Yes that means ANYONE can come to Virginia and buy a gun at a show and we don't check you for anything. It is things like this that need to be controlled better. Maybe just make it a state regulated thing. Have state gun shops rather than have anyone own a store. But I believe lax rule loopholes such as the gun show are the first thing that need to be fixed.

[Santo]

There is at least 2 remarks here that i find completly offensive, specially this being serious discussion, or suppose to be, but i guess at this point it's pointles to try an argue with anyone here anymore.

[HellRaiser]

Beli already summed up the whole thing in one sentence in her original post.
So with that said, it becomes moot point lol.

[Colonel Sanders]

Beli already summed up the whole thing in one sentence in her original post.
So with that said, it becomes moot point lol.

ummm are you serious? Beli made no point at all, in fact what she said was borderline stupid. Where do you think "criminals" get their guns in the U.S.? The same damn place these law abiding citizens do, if they can't they steal them from the "law abiding" people or places they hit.

[HellRaiser]

ummm are you serious? Beli made no point at all.

Yes, I am damn serious.
You are wrong though, Beli made a huge point, she just didn't go into detail of the why's and how's.

In fact what she said was borderline stupid.Where do you think "criminals" get their guns in the U.S.? The same damn place these law abiding citizens do, if they can't they steal them from the "law abiding" people or places they hit

Here let me educate you. :cheeky:

The REALITIES is quite different then someones perception or ignorant opinion.

Reality is...

Legal gun owners are not the problem, never have been.
Legal gun owners are not the insane ones walking around shooting people.
Legal gun owners are not the ones using guns to rob places.
Legal gun owners are not the ones committing gun violence.
Legal gun owners are not responsible for criminals actions with illegal guns.

Legal gun owners shouldn't be punished or treated like a criminal by taking their guns away because of criminal actions.

Gun crimes and gun violence is largely due to Gangs and criminals for profit with illegal guns. Plain and simple.

The stupidity is, taking away guns from legal owners doesn't stop criminals from having guns, never will.
So all you created is a worse scenario by criminals having 100% control over you, can we say victim all together now? :glare:

Sorry, but I won't be no victim, those who want to give the criminal more power, good luck to ya lol.
I'll make sure I have your grave stone say, "If I only had a gun, what if?" :cheeky:

Now there may be some tart claiming, "that is why you have police for" lol.
Sorry, but Police are useless, Police can't help you "when shit is happening".
Police are only good for recording info for court "AFTER SHIT HAPPENED". LMAO. :cheeky:

Now to hit upon the 2'nd part of this...

Where are the criminals getting the guns from?

You and "Asshole" and possibly others are either stating your ignorant opinion or believing in bullshit distorted media propaganda.
You's would like to believe criminals are getting the guns from legal gun owners by theft or gun stores,
but that is hardly the case when talking how and where a MAJORITY of the guns are coming from.

The majority of illegal guns are IMPORTED.
This is why there are no records or traceable.
This is why it is hard to stop, because you can't control every inch of border or multiple methods of transportation into a Country.
Sure, the Feds catch some, but for every one they bust, they missed 10 more.
It's the same reason with narcotics.


So no, some of ya's are either very naieve or just ignorant with silly posts talking on things ya know truly NOTHING ABOUT.
Nevermind those who don't even live in North America to truly live and feel the day to day events
that surround an specific social problem in relation to guns to speak or act like an authority on the subject. lol.

It's better just to say silent or say, this is my personal opinion that means nothing. :cheeky:

[Colonel Sanders]

Oh jesus this isn't Organized Crime we are talking about here. You can't go down to local docks and have a meeting with the former soviets to get some pristine Kalashnikov's:roll:

It's no secret that anyone that owns a gun shop or even yer normal dude with a license can get some pretty powerful weapons ranging from Heckler & Koch's to even fucking Barret M82 rifles these days. And it is pretty fucking useless to even get into the argument of gun shows, in most of them you don't even need I.D. or anything to obtain a powerful automatic. Then they circulate all over the country and viola you have common criminals being able to obtain them, even trigger happy under aged teens who have an idea to shoot up schools.

I do not know why you bring up this import bullshit, of course most of them are imported it is called trade and oh yeah the simple fact that most of the common well known gun manufactures are not located in the U.S. Importing has nothing to do with it.


About the only damn thing you are making sense about is trying to stop it. Yes it would be damn near impossible because we are so large of a country and yes because we have large border. No doubt if the U.S. banned firearms to citizens it would do next to nothing and stay that way for another 50 years. But then look at a place like the United Kingdom, it's very small and is an island, they have banned firearms for even their Law Enforcement and everyone seems to be happy with it....and it is easily controlled, i.e. yer not gonna find too many people that can just walk into a store with a working, loaded Glock and hold up a store, whereas in the U.S. it is an everyday, extremely common occurrence. I know two people that are 14 and 16 who could get an AK-47 tomorrow if they needed to, I'd like to see children that age be able to do that in the United Kingdom with that much ease.

Oh yes yer argument is pathetically weak on the area of being a victim, there are plenty of things you can plan for and do when faced with a criminal with a gun. For burglaries you could get an alarm system for the same amount it would take you to obtain a license, safe, and a semi automatic Sub Machine Gun. If an alarm system wouldn't scare them away then you better work on your stealth skills, getting the fuck out of their way and barricading yerself is enough cause most robbers most certainly are not there to murder you just for the shit of it unless you get in their face, and guess what in the even you do get burglarized you get new shit cause of insurance, big deal, only thing lost is your temporary peace of mind and some minor inconvenience, seems better than lives lost(possibly yer own) over some jewelry or TV's and what not; but it seems pretty useless to mention to you that most burglaries occur when you are not home. And let's not forget that most common crimes involving firearms they are used as deterrents to actual physical violence. In the event of murder, as in someone that has planned, that WANTS KILL YOU NO MATTER WHAT they are going to do with or without the help of a gun.

I also know that criminals with the backing a gun are more brazen and apt to do more serious crimes than without one, it gives them a power trip to know that they have the upper edge with that shiny piece of metal in their hand. The only way to take that away is either with a ban (which is far too late in the U.S. to have any real effect) or just offer every single citizen a free Glock that they can store in their home at the age of 18.

[Beli]

ummm are you serious? Beli made no point at all, in fact what she said was borderline stupid. Where do you think "criminals" get their guns in the U.S.? The same damn place these law abiding citizens do, if they can't they steal them from the "law abiding" people or places they hit.

i know you like to think that you are super smart and all... but you really are just spouting stuff that you have read or have been told. hit the streets and find out for yourself the answers.
my ex b/f was a gangster ish type. he killed 6 people that they pinned on him. i am pretty sure that there were more but when he decided to then shoot himself, the police kind of stopped investigating him. he had a stash of illegal guns. from various places and various ways of getting them. all of his friends had them too.
so yes i do know how and where the guns come from.

[Colonel Sanders]

ooook??

lol wow at least say something other than "you don't know shit I'm right"

So you had a boyfriend who was a gangster and a murder, you lose all credibility and respect just from that. But since you claim to know where he got all his stashed weapons and have such intimate knowledge on the subject why don't you actually say, instead of claiming it with one paragraph of bullshit.

And I myself am not just spouting off shit I've only read or told. I grew up in a pretty bad neighborhood and when I was with a friend one day there were 5 or 6 gangsters in the street that came outta nowhere, they fired their pistols not 5 feet from us, we took of. Numerous other incidents, some pretty recent, so I have experience with the horror aspect of it. My knowledge of the origins of the weapons are pretty detailed too considering my Uncle was once caught in that lifestyle and had access and was friends with criminals who had acquired quite a few guns illegally. Let's not forget that I live in redneck land as well, guns are everywhere here and so are the people to talk to if ya want to get one, legally or not. The answer for me when I ask where did yer dad, where did yer friend, where did you get those guns is always either a gun show or stolen from a residence.

[Zeus]

Awe sweet, KAF and Hellraiser are going at it now folks. We can all sit back and watch the two ppl who think they are constantly right about everything go back in forth on a never ending vicious cycle.

P.s I'm on Hellraisers's side on this one.

[Asshole]

Surely Beli if you know a lot of the methods used to import guns, people like you in the event of a clamp down on gun laws could help the police stop the smuggling?? While i already doubt your statement, if you did not then what kind of a person would you be??

You also state we dont have these problems because we are an island, yet you state in your next post most guns are smuggled in via boat...

think that through and stop using it as an argument..



As for kaf/hellraisers argument, if most guns are obtained illegally or with no checks at gun shows, then why dont they ban gun shows, why not make it illegal to sell or trade guns at said gun show, its like the smoking bans that are coming in.. they are slowly taking away all rights to smoke so eventually it will be pretty much a carpet ban, thats what they need to do with guns in the us.. slowly ween them out, by tightening trade laws on them.

England has guns here unfortunatley they get used, but theres a shitload less than if it was legal to bring them here, if it was legal to buy deadly bullets over the counter at shopping centres, basically if they were so availiable,

Ive made this point before and ill make it again, there will always be violent crime, but i would rather be faced by somebody with a knife than somebody with a gun, And yes i do have experience in the matter, as stated many times i work as a bookie, unfortunatley robberies come with the territory. and while i have fought off a few of the knife wielders who got a bit too heavy towards myself and other staff members i would not even attempt it with somebody carrying a gun

not to mention you are a lot more likley to survive a stab wound than a bullet wound, not to mention its harder to kill somebody with a knife than a bullet, and also not to mention you have to be a hell of a lot closer, meaning that your robbery isnt anything a nice punch just under the sternum wont fix.

i know what i would prefer and yes there will always be gun crime but the majority will be gangsters etc, and they arnt the type of people to go on a rampage killing people for no reason.. why cant you see that it would make your country safer, and i havent even touched on unfortunate child relate accidents involving firearms yet.. a subject that is truley saddening

[Beli]

Surely Beli if you know a lot of the methods used to import guns, people like you in the event of a clamp down on gun laws could help the police stop the smuggling?? While i already doubt your statement, if you did not then what kind of a person would you be??

You also state we dont have these problems because we are an island, yet you state in your next post most guns are smuggled in via boat...

think that through and stop using it as an argument..

asshole.. i haven't a clue about any gun problems you may or may not have in the UK. sarcasm doesn't always come across on the net. the US has a massive problem with illegal items being imported in. not just from Mexico as everyone assumes. most of it comes from shipping crates via the docks. i think China and Russia were to of the big ones. but that information is probably way out dated.

i only know how my ex and his friends got a hold of guns. they were no big time guys so i doubt the 40 or so guns they had made much difference in the local crime scene. this is California. i would say that 7/10 gangsters have access to a gun. my brother is gang detective (yep he arrests all the people i used to hang out with) he recently dealt with the death of a 2 year old little girl whose father had left his illegal gun where she could get it. one shot right through her heart. my brother and his partner had tried many times to get the guy locked up and to get the child to a safe environment. to bad the government is so slow to act on some things.

imo gun should be taken away or very closely monitored. people cry about they have a right to bear arms, yet i think that one needs to earn that right. but take them away from the bad guys first. don't target the legal gun owners until you can prove they are the problem.

[Colonel Sanders]

You have to catch the bad guys first...yer back at square one. Doesn't fucking matter, federal officials won't be going up to a gangster and say "give me yer gun please, do yer murders with a knife from now on" and then be on their way, sigh

Also you claimed yet again you know where yer boyfriend and acquaintance's got their 40+ weapons yet you still do not say. You are full of shit.

And also why are you and some others keep referring to these weapons as "illegal" and "smuggled" in.

M-16's are not illegal in the U.S.
NEITHER are Kalashnikov's, MP-5's, practically anything else you can think of besides strict military only shit that is not up for trade or sale to other governments or the police force.

[HellRaiser]

Oh jesus this isn't Organized Crime we are talking about here.

Actually, funny you mention this, because for your and anyone's else information "organized crime" is DIRECTLY behind a MAJORITY of illegal imported weapons. How you think the weapons get here, regualr Joe making a mass weapons purchase online overseas? :S
One doesn't need to work for the Feds to know that basic reality.

You can't go down to local docks and have a meeting with the former soviets to get some pristine Kalashnikov's:roll:

Well it's not the former Soviets, it's the current Russian Mobsters along with quite a few organizations
of various heritages running weapon and narcotic smuggling into various Countries around the world.

It's no secret that anyone that owns a gun shop or even yer normal dude with a license can get some pretty powerful weapons ranging from Heckler & Koch's to even fucking Barret M82 rifles these days.

Maybe in some of the States ya, but then again that is the PROBLEM OF WEAK ASS GUN LAWS.
But banning guns from EVERYONE is hardly the answer. As I already stated it does nothing.

And it is pretty fucking useless to even get into the argument of gun shows, in most of them you don't even need I.D. or anything to obtain a powerful automatic.

Yes, but that falls back into the WEAK GUN LAWS category.

I do not know why you bring up this import bullshit, of course most of them are imported it is called trade.

Oh my gosh KAF, trade? If it was trade they would be LEGAL lol.

the simple fact that most of the common well known gun manufactures are not located in the U.S. Importing has nothing to do with it.

Are you kidding me?
The majority of legal guns being sold in America are made in America.
The majority of illegal guns being sold in America are imports.

About the only damn thing you are making sense about is trying to stop it.

If you only knew KAF, what my old job was and who I was involved with to be able to state these things with confidence. :hehe:
Were talking about the purchase and trafficking of illegal weapons and narcotics,
that range in the multiple of billions of dollars a year business for a controlled syndicate.
That is a hardly legal gun problem.

Yes it would be damn near impossible because we are so large of a country and yes because we have large border. No doubt if the U.S. banned firearms to citizens it would do next to nothing and stay that way for another 50 years.

So if you're saying that you are erasing your point to ban guns lol.
You admit it will do NOTHING to solve the problem.
So why are you LOBBYING then hehehe. :hidey:

But then look at a place like the United Kingdom, it's very small and is an island, they have banned firearms for even their Law Enforcement and everyone seems to be happy with it....

Nah, don't be fooled, they have the fair share of gun crime and gun violence.
Guess what? It can't be legal guns now can it? lol
Their law enforcement detachment also has guns, just not in the same fashion as plain to see as here.
You think when someone pulls a gun there, they run up with their billybat and say..
" Stop in the name of the law or I will hit you with my bat"? lol

yer not gonna find too many people that can just walk into a store with a working, loaded Glock and hold up a store.

I urge you to go type into google or wherever for gun crime stats for the UK and see for yourself, you might be surprised.
Yes, it may not be half as bad as the USA but then again the USA has 5 TIMES the population of the UK to factor in.
Plus you got a completly different market and social economic scenario which makes all the difference in the world.

Oh yes yer argument is pathetically weak on the area of being a victim, there are plenty of things you can plan for and do when faced with a criminal with a gun.

Hahahaha, you say that but like most would cowar in fear or already be dead lol.

For burglaries you could get an alarm system.
I know your joking about that one right? :hehe:
If that is the best defense ya got, I hope it works out for ya lol.

If an alarm system wouldn't scare them away then you better work on your stealth skills, getting the fuck out of their way and barricading yerself is enough cause most robbers most certainly are not there to murder you.

LOL, stealth skills? Listen any professional robber doesn't rob you when your home anyway.
The only people who rob you when your home is newbs, but they are they are the worse kind.
They will panic and shoot you anyway, no witness, your done.

guess what in the even you do get burglarized you get new shit cause of insurance, big deal, only thing lost is your temporary peace of mind and some minor inconvenience.

Personally I could give a fuck about loss possessions, owning guns isn't to protect possessions for me.
It's about being home and protecting myself and loved ones from newb intruders, hence home defense.

seems better than lives lost (possibly yer own)

Nah, I enjoy loss lives, one or how many other less pathetic losers in the world to hurt or destroy someone else. (H)
As for myself, not worried, trust me lol.

And let's not forget that most common crimes involving firearms they are used as deterrents to actual physical violence.

Exactly, but that works both ways.
If some idiot wants to fuck you up or rape your wife or molest your kids or whatever sicko plan it is,
I am sure my gun will mostly definetly prevent that. :P

In the event of murder, as in someone that has planned, that WANTS KILL YOU NO MATTER WHAT they are going to do with or without the help of a gun.

Ya think? Well, 99% of people are not that good lol.
Those that think they were are usually buried somewhere or chopped up.
The only type of person that ideology applies to is a hitman. :P

ooook??

So you had a boyfriend who was a gangster and a murder, you lose all credibility and respect just from that. But since you claim to know where he got all his stashed weapons and have such intimate knowledge on the subject why don't you actually say, instead of claiming it with one paragraph of bullshit.

She isn't bullshitting, her ex boyfriend was into that.


Awe sweet, KAF and Hellraiser are going at it now folks. We can all sit back and watch the two ppl who think they are constantly right about everything go back in forth on a never ending vicious cycle.

Yes, sadly though I am 99% right, compared to everyones else simple and only opinion.

P.s I'm on Hellraisers's side on this one.

lmao.

Surely Beli if you know a lot of the methods used to import guns, people like you in the event of a clamp down on gun laws could help the police stop the smuggling??

That's the problem though, it's not just laws, it would require massive task forces.
Organized crime is not small lol.

You also state we dont have these problems because we are an island.

But you do have problems, just not to the same extent due to 5 times less the population.
Not to mention different market stability and economic, unemployment conditions.

As for kaf/hellraisers argument, if most guns are obtained illegally or with no checks at gun shows, then why dont they ban gun shows, why not make it illegal to sell or trade guns at said gun show, its like the smoking bans that are coming in..

Good question, I don't know, the government is stupid lol.
Not my government, not my laws, I'm Canadian hehehe.

they are slowly taking away all rights to smoke so eventually it will be pretty much a carpet ban, thats what they need to do with guns in the us.. slowly ween them out, by tightening trade laws on them.

The problem can be solved I just don't think they want to spend the money or time or man power to do it as in the case of MOST PROBLEMS.

Ive made this point before and ill make it again, there will always be violent crime, but i would rather be faced by somebody with a knife than somebody with a gun, And yes i do have experience in the matter, as stated many times i work as a bookie, unfortunatley robberies come with the territory. and while i have fought off a few of the knife wielders who got a bit too heavy towards myself and other staff members i would not even attempt it with somebody carrying a gun.

Your boss or outlet must be syndicated if it avoids professional grabs.
Because professional criminals have guns and wouldn't be caught dead with a knife.
So the only people robbing you apparently are newbs who obviously have no clue.

i know what i would prefer and yes there will always be gun crime but the majority will be gangsters etc, and they arnt the type of people to go on a rampage killing people for no reason..

Actually, in every Country in the World, it's the gangsters and organized crime who sells the weapons to those who sell them on the street to anybody.
So essentially technically it's organized crime responsible for a majority of gun related crime/violence/ etc..

[Asshole]

I dont know why yanks cant just look at the situation and think..

It works in other coutries, (and not just islands, works even in landlocked countries) so it will work here too with a bit of effort

[Furyous]

I don't know why Brits always think they've got the one and only answer to the worlds problems... :hehe:

[Colonel Sanders]

What I'd like to know is why Hellraiser thinks these guns are still illegal.

How many damn times do I have to say that a wide range of automatic weapons such as Kalashnikov's are NOT illegal in the United States.

Gun store owners are only half the problem, they can use all of these weapons they obtain legally and put them on gun shows when they please and then sell them illegally without the governments knowledge. The other part of the problem is just illegal common trade coming from across the border from either organized street thug crime or just amongst common selves.

[Beli]

What I'd like to know is why Hellraiser thinks these guns are still illegal.

How many damn times do I have to say that a wide range of automatic weapons such as Kalashnikov's are NOT illegal in the United States.

Gun store owners are only half the problem, they can use all of these weapons they obtain legally and put them on gun shows when they please and then sell them illegally without the governments knowledge. The other part of the problem is just illegal common trade coming from across the border from either organized street thug crime or just amongst common selves.

gun laws differ from state to state. i.e. SKS are illegal to buy in California. you can still posses them if you bought them before the law went into effect. i think that California has some of the toughest gun laws yet the news is still full of reports of deaths by gunfire.
and as for saying how my old friends got stuff.... do you know what happens to snitches?

[Sharksbite!]

What is this insane fear you have of guns?

Guns are simply machines. Machines that do the bidding of the person operating them. Some are big some are small, some are made so well as to be an art form in themselves. Pleasing to the eye and truly a pleasure to hold and operate.

I like guns, can you tell? They're alot like cars and I like them also.

How about a few comparisons.

Population
#3 United States 303,545,000
#22 United Kingdom 60,587,300

Guns
According to the BBB World Service:
The United States has the largest number of guns in private hands of any country in the world with 60 million people owning a combined arsenal of over 200 million firearms.
United Kindom: 0


Five times the population, five times the crime. Banning guns doesn't seem to have made much difference here.

Total crimes
#1 United States: 23,677,800
#3 United Kingdom: 5,170,830


Looks like people are still finding ways to murder each other. What do you want to ban now?

Murders
#6 United States: 12,658
#18 United Kingdom: 850


Why isn't this number zero in the UK?

Murders with firearms
#4 United States: 8,259
#20 United Kingdom: 62


27 times more likely to be killed by a gun in the United States (200 million guns vs zero guns), and even then, the numbers are pretty small.

Murders with firearms (per capita)
#8 United States: 0.02792710 per 1,000 people
#32 United Kingdom: 0.00102579 per 1,000 people

And all that with less 1/6th the police force to watch over us.

Police (per capita)
#34 United Kingdom: 2.04871 per 1,000 people
United States: Didn't make the list, some where below 0.370767 per 1,000 people

BTW, Cars kill on average 38,000 people per year in the USA.

2006/38,588 2005/39,252 2004/38,444 2003/38,477 2002/38,491 2001/37,862 2000/37,526

If it is simply a matter of stopping crime, Why aren't you lobbying for more police officers?
If it is simply a matter of saving lives, Why aren't you trying to ban cars?

Banning guns is just wrong.

[Colonel Sanders]

No Shark it isn't that simple. While right now I am somewhat undecided of banning guns all together I am leaning toward a ban.

Guns are fun and truly a pleasure to operate as you said but it does not stop the fact that they are made for killing...cars, cars are made for driving. It also gives any given person an extension of power and lethality, would be no different from "playing god" and genetically altering human physiology to make us stronger; giving a person a good firearm to do whatever he pleases with is something humanity cannot deal with responsibly right now, whether you are so called "law abiding" or not.

[Sharksbite!]

You have just described my dream car "extension of power and lethality, would be no different from "playing god" and genetically altering human physiology to make us stronger".

I disagree, I think we need to give people more responsibility.

I don't think we have enough guns. I would like to put a gun in the hand of each of those poor bastards that were murdered and give them a fighting chance. They're dead anyway.

I would like to see a lot more criminals complaining on the local TV news that they were shot at by "Law Abiding Citizens", than the other way around.

I want to see more families crying around the grave site of their loved one who was shot dead while committing a crime, than the families of victims.

I don't see that happening if only the criminals have guns.

[Colonel Sanders]

I though about that but bottom line is it would never work, society would have to be anarchical if that were to happen. And in the modern age with modern governments it is simply not feasible. You cannot create a whole country to be like the "Wild West" and expect things to resolve itself.

[Sharksbite!]

"Out of anarchy comes reason"

You would deny a whole section of humanity the right to defend themselves against those that would do them harm?

The 105lb college student being drug into a back alley to be brutally raped and murdered by a 250lb thug.

The not so stealthy, wheel chair bound veteran, who meets an intruder in his living room at 2am.

One well placed shot would have stopped Ted Bundy or the Green River killer. Their victums never stood a chance and by your thinking, never will.

[Mitch]

Can you honestly say that if someone broke into your house with a gun, you'd confront them with your gun. Whereas, you could not confront them, let them take some shit, and live..

[tca]

My god, Americans are more ignorant then i ever thought possible in human existence :unsure: good luck with that whole, keeping guns legal thing you all have going on.

[Sharksbite!]

Yes.

Two rounds center body mass. Administer first aid if necessary. Call police to record the shooting and to drag their dead ass out of my house.

Were not afraid to fight for our freedoms.

[tca]

So put down the weapons and use fists like real freedom fighters?

[Sharksbite!]

That's an intersesting response from someone who's avatar is sporting two semi automatic weapons.

[Colonel Sanders]

That's an intersesting response from someone who's avatar is sporting two semi automatic weapons.

That is a video game character idiot.

Out of anarchy comes more anarchy. This is repeated throughout history. The civilization you seem to be dreaming up seems awfully close to Genghis Khan's empire. Which is probably the closest thing to a stable one world government the world has ever or will ever see. IT WILL NOT WORK NOW, if you lack the basic reasoning skills to realize this then you should not even be living.

[tca]

That's an intersesting response from someone who's avatar is sporting two semi automatic weapons.

Must not be familiar with the game "Hitman" i take it? I don't support guns, never have, never will, i don't believe in anyway they make somebody any bigger/tougher whatever, i think the use of guns to solve any kind of problem to be pathetic and sad.

[Sharksbite!]

I plead ignorance. I don't play video games.

But, it is starting to make sense. Living in a country that doesn't trust its people enough to own weapons, where their own Olympic shooting team has to come the States to practice, I suppose the next best thing is play with make believe ones. If that was all I had, I'd do the same.

No, they don't make anybody bigger or tougher. Just equal. I don't have a problem with beating the hell out of someone trying to steal my wallet, but most violent criminals prey on the weak and the elderly. Relegating them to victim status with now hope of defending themselves is wrong.

And Colonel, you called me an idiot. What's up with that. I don't remember taking any personal shots at you, no pun intended.

I am honored that you would mention myself and Genghis Khan in the same sentence. Ruler of the largest empire the world has ever known, and quite the formidable warrior. I'd put him on my top ten list of people I would like to meet.

Its a bit of a stretch to compare disagreeing with a ban on guns to wanting to create a large nomadic empire in Asia.

When you come back down off of whatever it is you are smoking, try staying off it for a while. At least until your head clears.

[Colonel Sanders]

lol. Genghis Khan is one of my favorite people in history and one I would like to meet as well. The only thing I meant by that is because his philosophy had very much similar qualities with what you said about giving everyone guns. Something that due to the worlds population, racism, and much deadlier weapons simply cannot be viable anymore.

[tca]

I plead ignorance. I don't play video games.

You don't need to plead ignorance, i already assumed you WERE ignorant :cheeky:

But, it is starting to make sense. Living in a country that doesn't trust its people enough to own weapons, where their own Olympic shooting team has to come the States to practice, I suppose the next best thing is play with make believe ones. If that was all I had, I'd do the same.

Really? I don't follow the Olympics, so its of really no consequence what they do with themselves, for your information also, my dad has a gun license, so i actually get to play with quite a few guns at my leisure, do you know why i don't? Because, whats the point?

No, they don't make anybody bigger or tougher. Just equal

If that is your idea of equality, lets hope you never get into a position of power :angel:

I don't have a problem with beating the hell out of someone trying to steal my wallet, but most violent criminals prey on the weak and the elderly. Relegating them to victim status with now hope of defending themselves is wrong.

No of course your right on the one hand of it being wrong, but lets think about this, not sure how it is there, nor do i ever hope to know how it is there, but here those criminals very rarely use guns in those certain attacks on old/weak people, they tend to lean towards their fists, blunt objects, or knives


This is a boring argument, you're never going to try and see the other side of the argument, im arguing a moot point.

[Nazkyn]

Yes.

Two rounds center body mass. Administer first aid if necessary. Call police to record the shooting and to drag their dead ass out of my house.

Were not afraid to fight for our freedoms.

And I think that's America's major problem. It's a vicious cycle, guns are legal -> people get guns -> innocent people think they need guns to protect themselves. It's SIMPLE as fuck, ban guns, stop the cycle.

[Sharksbite!]

How can you be such an hypocrite? It's ok to ban guns because my family has special privilege. I can play with guns at my leisure.

We have elitists here also. United States Senator Dianne Feinstein. She wants to ban "all" guns, but at the same time, it's alright for her to carry a pistol in her purse. "For self defense purposes only". She puts faith in owning a gun, the rest of us,(the uncleansed) will need to put our faith in God or the police. Most will probably meet God before the police arrive. Bitch!

Although I disagree, I respect your personal views on guns. Don't care for them, fine, don't want to own one, great. Continue to live in a country that so fears its populace that they have taken hundreds of years of gun history, in some cases one of a kind historical pieces and cut them into scrap. Don't try that in my country. I'm proud to be a gun owner, and to own the guns of my father and grandfathers. I live within earshot of two gun ranges and it warms my heart to hear those exercising there freedoms as well.

I don't know if you read the statistics, our crime rate per capita is not that different from yours. If we could put six times the police officers on the street as you have, I'd bet we could reduce crime to well below that your country so, explain to me how banning guns has made such a positive difference. Better yet, explain to those that can't defend themselves that, it's Ok, take the beating, they're only using clubs and fists.

All you have done is usurp the freedom of law abiding citizens.

There are a lots things wrong with the world that we live in, but guns are not the Holy Grail or the well spring from which all evil flows and banning guns will not fix the problems. It only serves to strengthen government control over its people.

Good luck fending them off in your old age with your keyboard. By them you'll probably need a blunt instrument license to do that?

[HellRaiser]

What I'd like to know is why Hellraiser thinks these guns are still illegal.

Oh I don't know maybe because you were not listening.
Here let me try again, without incriminating myself.

I know many mobsters and organizations who have done ( for over 100 years ) and still put
millions upon millions of illegal guns ( and narcotics) in any given street in the world.

How many damn times do I have to say that a wide range of automatic weapons such as Kalashnikov's are NOT illegal in the United States.

Who ever said they were as a totality?
As Beli said, gun laws vary from state to state.

Gun store owners are only half the problem, they can use all of these weapons they obtain legally and put them on gun shows when they please and then sell them illegally without the governments knowledge.

Yes, that is true, but that is why gun laws need to be in place not banning guns totally.
Ya see, here in Canada we have gun laws, they are fairly strict but they work pretty well.
Maybe the USA can take model from that.

[Nazkyn]

I'm going to assume that the figures that you posted before are correct. I would assume that with that amount of police coverage, a lot of crime is going to go undetected. I could be very wrong, but prove it :) Britain definitely has it's fair share of problems, but the guns are getting onto the streets in a different way, it seems to mostly be converted guns over here.

As far as i'm concerned, you wanna be trigger happy? Get a water pistol, because Americans like you are only contributing to the major fuck-up that is America. I refuse to believe that anyone wants to live in a society where they could be shot dead at basically any minute and that's exactly what you are contributing to if you own a gun whether you realise it or not. Maybe I watch too many movies, but as far as i'm aware, most handguns are imported (don't confuse imported with smuggled like it seems to be in the rest of this thread either), sold and registered to legal owners, and then stolen by some crackhead who won't give a flying fuck about putting a bullet in your head for just $20 to fund his next fix. But as Steff said - We've come to understand that it's pointless to argue with a Yank over gun ownership. The American philosophy seems to be 'Some crackhead down the street has got a gun, so i'm gonna go and tool my whole family up like John Wayne', I won't even claim to have a complete answer to America's shitload of problems, but I don't think they can go wrong with taking a bit more control at the very least. How can the gun culture in ghetto's exist if guns are illegal? And don't tell me they're gonna go to other sources, tell me how many "G's" you know that can afford to buy a completely traceless gun from the Russian mafia as opposed to buying one from some crackhead that has just stole one for half the price.

[Ice]

lol guns are not the problem...People are the problem...It is the personality of the person who owns the gun that decides wether or not the gun is dangerous...A ghetto will still be dangerous with out weapons...A crackhead can still be dangerous with out a weapon...It has nothing to do with a gun...Though Canada and the USA do have diffrent rights and opinions on gun rights...We do not believe that it is our right necisarily to carry a weapon nor do we carry one at all times...We must have them registered and locked up safely...Where as the USA you can carry them around in your pocket..Yes I think that carrying them around freely may make it a small percentage more dangerous but, not because of the weapon..because it gives the person carrying it more of a opportunity to make a stupid choice to use it.....

If that makes any sense

[Sharksbite!]

As far as I know the stats are valid and verifiable.

I don't condone violence and do not wish to be viewed as supporter of such things. I don't play violent video games, listen to violent music, or watch many movies containing violence, although the latter is getting harder to avoid.

Unfortunately, the world, being as it is, can be violent. I equate it to something similar to a forest fire. Sometimes you need to start a fire to stop one. If someone enters my home in an attempt to do violence to me or my family, it will be met with an equal amount of violence, up to and including deadly force. It is my right as a human being to defend myself against all those that would do me harm. Telling an armed intruder that it is illegal to enter my home with intent to do me harm probably isn't going to stop them, and neither I afraid, is my super soaker. Thanks, but no thanks. I'll pass.

Banning guns won't prevent those willing to break the law from either owning them or using them to commit crimes, but it would prevent law abiding citizens from having the opportunity to defend themselves against an armed criminal.

Part of the problem is that gun violence, however small, and it's really is not as prevalent as it is made out to be, is sensationalized by the media. They would lead us into believing that we are living in the killing fields and that We have to ban guns or the world as we know it will end. Horse pucky. Governments are the largest wholesale slaughterers of innocent people on the planet. Always have been and always will be. Just look at those poor bastards in Darfur.

I don't "tool up" because of the crack head down the street. He has his own problems and I don't need to make them mine.
I don't see myself as John Wayne or walk dark streets in bad neighborhoods, carrying a gun just looking for trouble.
What I am, is not afraid of people or people who happen to own guns.
What I believe, it is the right of every law abiding citizen, if they so choose, to own a gun.

A right by definition, "that which a person has just claim to by law", is not negotiable. Putting controls in place that do not interfere with that right pose no problem, but when you make laws knowing full well that it is impossible to comply, you are trying to circumvent the law, invalidate my rights, and you enter the realm of tyranny.

An example of that would be in the first post. It is nothing more than an insidious attempt to ban guns. It reeks of politics, government regulation and oppression, nothing more.

Agree with me or not, your choice, but I am getting off my soapbox.

Thanks for listening.

BTW, If you think I'm an ass and you think you are the first to say it to my face, the line starts way over there. If you get in your car now and start driving you might get to the end before reset

[Mitch]

Hope you don't mind your children getting shot to shit by some upset kid in high school then. Ciao.

[Sharksbite!]

That would bother me, it would bother me greatly that any child was killed at school. A place of learning, somewhere every child should feel safe.

But in all honesty I believe the odds of being struck by lighting in this country are greater, and the odds of dying in a car accident are even greater still.

How safe do you want to be? Just stay home. Maybe the odds of dying in a house fire or earthquake are more appealing to you.

[Mitch]

Cars are a necessity for this modern age. Guns aren't. Be realistic.

[Sharksbite!]

Cars are not a necessity, ttrains, trucks, busses, and airplanes. probably.

[XXX]

How can you be such an hypocrite? It's ok to ban guns because my family has special privilege. I can play with guns at my leisure.

We have elitists here also. United States Senator Dianne Feinstein. She wants to ban "all" guns, but at the same time, it's alright for her to carry a pistol in her purse. "For self defense purposes only". She puts faith in owning a gun, the rest of us,(the uncleansed) will need to put our faith in God or the police. Most will probably meet God before the police arrive. Bitch!

Although I disagree, I respect your personal views on guns. Don't care for them, fine, don't want to own one, great. Continue to live in a country that so fears its populace that they have taken hundreds of years of gun history, in some cases one of a kind historical pieces and cut them into scrap. Don't try that in my country. I'm proud to be a gun owner, and to own the guns of my father and grandfathers. I live within earshot of two gun ranges and it warms my heart to hear those exercising there freedoms as well.

I don't know if you read the statistics, our crime rate per capita is not that different from yours. If we could put six times the police officers on the street as you have, I'd bet we could reduce crime to well below that your country so, explain to me how banning guns has made such a positive difference. Better yet, explain to those that can't defend themselves that, it's Ok, take the beating, they're only using clubs and fists.

All you have done is usurp the freedom of law abiding citizens.

There are a lots things wrong with the world that we live in, but guns are not the Holy Grail or the well spring from which all evil flows and banning guns will not fix the problems. It only serves to strengthen government control over its people.

Good luck fending them off in your old age with your keyboard. By them you'll probably need a blunt instrument license to do that?:gunner: A BIG AMEN,,

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[tca]

How can you be such an hypocrite? It's ok to ban guns because my family has special privilege. I can play with guns at my leisure.

Didn't say we had "special privilege". If they entirely banned guns here, my dad would lose his right to own guns as well. Call me an elitist all you want, cos fuck, i know im above you anyway. ;)

We have elitists here also. United States Senator Dianne Feinstein. She wants to ban "all" guns, but at the same time, it's alright for her to carry a pistol in her purse. "For self defense purposes only". She puts faith in owning a gun, the rest of us,(the uncleansed) will need to put our faith in God or the police. Most will probably meet God before the police arrive. Bitch!

That shows how truly sad your country is period. I don't really need to say much more aye.

Although I disagree, I respect your personal views on guns. Don't care for them, fine, don't want to own one, great. Continue to live in a country that so fears its populace that they have taken hundreds of years of gun history, in some cases one of a kind historical pieces and cut them into scrap. Don't try that in my country. I'm proud to be a gun owner, and to own the guns of my father and grandfathers. I live within earshot of two gun ranges and it warms my heart to hear those exercising there freedoms as well.

I respect your views as well, you still are an idiot though.

I don't know if you read the statistics, our crime rate per capita is not that different from yours.

As i live in Australia, i fail to see what the UK crime stats has to do with me, we actually have police who carry guns, you need a license to own guns and semi automatic guns are illegal completey since the port arthur massacre in 1996? Where about 30 people were gunned down by a psycho idiot.

Lets take alook at all the school shootings going on recently, do you believe that if guns were banned in America, those kids would still have been able to get those guns? To have the ability to hurt so many people?

If we could put six times the police officers on the street as you have, I'd bet we could reduce crime to well below that your country so, explain to me how banning guns has made such a positive difference. Better yet, explain to those that can't defend themselves that, it's Ok, take the beating, they're only using clubs and fists.

Well evidently you've also lost touch with the real world, as a majority of crime here is criminals hitting other criminals/drug lords/rich people because they have shit to take, so they just beat the shit outta each other (i consider rich people to be scum, as alot of them are elitists ;)) Other then that, some old people get attacked, but hey, the world is becoming increasingly more violent, as it is, thats life, you take the good with the bad.

As for taking a beating, there are things attached to your arms called hands, closed, they make fists, swing said fists at the face of somebody with a club or just their fists, chances are, they won't be feeling so tough.

All you have done is usurp the freedom of law abiding citizens.

Not here i haven't, we don't have the right bear arms, which im quite glad about, i'd be really pissed off if i got shot in some drive by, that hell, i might just go buy a gun and bust caps in the ass of every gangsta i see /end sarcasm, do you see whats wrong with your mentality?



I don't blame you, i blame the country you live in.

[Sharksbite!]

Wow, Australia. My mistake, but if I remember correctly I was comparing the US and the UK when you chimed in. "In the shadows" doesn't give one much to go on. Had I known you were from a former penal colony it would have changed my response. I still believe you are somewhat of a hypocrite, but elitist now doesn't fit.

As I understand it, Australia went through a major ratcheting down on gun ownership laws. Although you can own guns, ownership is strictly regulated and "at the will" of the government which I assume is precarious at best. Having never had the right to own guns I suppose you won't miss it when they finally remove the privilege completely. Cie Le Vie, not my problem.

I agree, having a United States Senator like Dianne Feinstein is sad and somewhat embarrassing. More embarrassing is our inability to field even a quarter of the police officers per capita as the UK.

Idiot? Start driving now if you want a good place inline.

Then there is Australia who has even more police per capita than does the US or the UK. Funny thing, somehow you have three times the number of murders with firearms, per capita, as does the UK. You must be a pretty rough bunch down under. Maybe it's all those rich scum bastard elitists driving up the numbers. Maybe you should have gone for a total ban on guns. Its not to late.

I don't know what we are going to do about the school shootings. It's sad that a few could feel so disenfranchised that the only thing left for them to do is go out in a blaze of glory. That goes much deeper than gun control and deeper than I can speak to. With nearly as many students going to school every day as there are people in Australia, you would expect some problems, but nothing this extreme.

Quote: "Other then that, some old people get attacked, but hey, the world is becoming increasingly more violent, as it is, thats life, you take the good with the bad".

That's harsh dude. You'll be there one day if you are lucky enough to live that long, and I wouldn't wish that on you.

I've seen hidden camera videos of a retirement home where this nurse was smacking the hell out of one of the residents because they couldn't get in and out of the bathtub fast enough. There was nothing he could do to protect himself and just got wailed on.
I turned my stomach. The physical and verbal abuse was absolutely sickening to watch.

I do see what's wrong with that mentality. Some one harms you and you decide to take revenge on everyone and everything that even remotely resembles the perpetrators. Innocent or not. Guilt by association. That's exactly what I am arguing against.

One bad apple doesn't spoil the whole box. One crazy bastard with a gun doesn't make every gun owner guilty nor does it require a total ban on firearms. So no, I don't see what's wrong with my mentality, but I do see what's wrong with yours.

I don't blame you either, I don't even blame the country you live in. It is just a few worthless bastards in this world that make it rough on all of us.

[tca]

Wow, Australia. My mistake, but if I remember correctly I was comparing the US and the UK when you chimed in. "In the shadows" doesn't give one much to go on. Had I known you were from a former penal colony it would have changed my response. I still believe you are somewhat of a hypocrite, but elitist now doesn't fit.

Hypocrite i might be, never have claimed i wasnt. Oh yes, the good old "your country is full of criminals" argument, really, i'd have expected somewhat of a better rebuttal from you on that note.

As I understand it, Australia went through a major ratcheting down on gun ownership laws. Although you can own guns, ownership is strictly regulated and "at the will" of the government which I assume is precarious at best. Having never had the right to own guns I suppose you won't miss it when they finally remove the privilege completely. Cie Le Vie, not my problem.

Our government has its head so far up george bushes arse (well howard did) that i'd be suprised if our country don't turn out like America anyway, then hey, im moving to Britain, but your right on the our government is precarious. I don't have the right to own guns, no, but i will have when i apply for a gun license, why you may ask? Because, we need guns, as we live in the country where wild animals attack livestock, chickens etc.

I agree, having a United States Senator like Dianne Feinstein is sad and somewhat embarrassing. More embarrassing is our inability to field even a quarter of the police officers per capita as the UK.

Glad we agree on something.

Idiot? Start driving now if you want a good place inline.

No thanks, i'll pass on the internet gangsterism, bambi is a good candidate for wanting to fight people if they ever unban him.

Then there is Australia who has even more police per capita than does the US or the UK. Funny thing, somehow you have three times the number of murders with firearms, per capita, as does the UK.

Yes, criminals steal guns off the security guards, who obtain their firearms legally, its becoming a major problem down here, maybe you should have researched that part.

You must be a pretty rough bunch down under. Maybe it's all those rich scum bastard elitists driving up the numbers. Maybe you should have gone for a total ban on guns. Its not to late.

Maybe we should, but then who is gonna shoot all those damn chinese when they take over the world. :angel:

I don't know what we are going to do about the school shootings. It's sad that a few could feel so disenfranchised that the only thing left for them to do is go out in a blaze of glory. That goes much deeper than gun control and deeper than I can speak to. With nearly as many students going to school every day as there are people in Australia, you would expect some problems, but nothing this extreme.

By the same argument, we could also throw China into the equation, do they have half as many problems as the USA? Lets get some stats up on that too aye.

Quote: "Other then that, some old people get attacked, but hey, the world is becoming increasingly more violent, as it is, thats life, you take the good with the bad".

That's harsh dude. You'll be there one day if you are lucky enough to live that long, and I wouldn't wish that on you.

Harsh, yes, but reality, i agree with the below statement, that is terrible and such a shame that it happens, but do you think giving old people firearms and the right to shoot somebody like that is the right way to go about it? As for me, don't worry bout when i get old. Im more then able to take care of myself.

"I've seen hidden camera videos of a retirement home where this nurse was smacking the hell out of one of the residents because they couldn't get in and out of the bathtub fast enough. There was nothing he could do to protect himself and just got wailed on.
I turned my stomach. The physical and verbal abuse was absolutely sickening to watch."

I do see what's wrong with that mentality. Some one harms you and you decide to take revenge on everyone and everything that even remotely resembles the perpetrators. Innocent or not. Guilt by association. That's exactly what I am arguing against.

Your arguing against it, yet you support the right to bear arms? Don't you see that its exactly what is going to happen one day, piss off somebody like, say somebody shoots your sister/mother/wife, would you not want to just be like, oh i think i might get a gun and deal out some eye for an eye punishment? You could just snap completey, people can do some insane things in a fit of blind rage.

One bad apple doesn't spoil the whole box. One crazy bastard with a gun doesn't make every gun owner guilty nor does it require a total ban on firearms. So no, I don't see what's wrong with my mentality, but I do see what's wrong with yours.

You can see whats wrong with my mentality all you want, you live over there, i live over here, when you get shot in some gun related accident, don't come crying to us.

I don't blame you either, I don't even blame the country you live in. It is just a few worthless bastards in this world that make it rough on all of us.

Very true.



Well this is quite fun.

[Sharksbite!]

I has been quite fun and I appreciate the banter, but I'm played out.

Maybe I'll go polish one of my instruments of evil. Because I can. LOL

[tca]

lol i'll polish an instrument later too ;)

later, take it easy lol

[Furyous]

ah, great. Here come the Aussies to save the day! Man, I sure am glad all you Brits and Aussies have all the solutions we Americans need! Thanks for your fanstastic advice! Now shove it up your ass and don't call us next time your gettin your pansy asses handed to you by, say, Germany!
/sarcasm

[Mitch]

You needed the French to beat England. Don't talk shit, dipshit.

Furthermore, i think you got a bit confused with where your sarcasm should end..

[tca]

ah, great. Here come the Aussies to save the day! Man, I sure am glad all you Brits and Aussies have all the solutions we Americans need! Thanks for your fanstastic advice! Now shove it up your ass and don't call us next time your gettin your pansy asses handed to you by, say, Germany!
/sarcasm

Of course, the might American army, lets all bow down to them, the only reason anyone is scared of America is because you all have nukes. Get over yourselves.

[HellRaiser]

Sharksbate and anyone else who stands behind the legal ownership of guns...

Forget them, they don't get the true complexities of this issue muchless most social issues.
They think the whole issue ( as most issues) is black and white, simpleton answers for simpleton people.
Just thank your lucky stars they can't lobby. :hehe:

I think the point "furyous" was trying to make was...
Feel free ( Furyous) to correct me, if I am wrong about this,
Regardless, this is what I see anyway...

I see a common trend that seems to always happen on these forums on any given subject of programs or policies or laws etc..

A select few, sometimes many more that live in the UK or Australia (or any place really outside North America )
always bashing something about America or Americans. As if YOU somehow believe your better or have higher standards.:hidey:
Always so fast to critique or have the answers to problems for everyone else that YOU'S CAN'T FIX in your own Country. :cheeky:
Muchless be a lobbyist for anyone else Country. Like your individual systems and programs work so well.:hehe:
Talk about massive hypocrisy at work and at it's finest I must say.

The irony is, guns are either illegal to own for your citizens or a select few and your numbers
of gun crime/violence/murder are fairly disturbing per capita lol.
So.....ALL YOUR words are not only pointless but terribly hypocritical.

Maybe, When ya's can fix your own crime rates and ILLEGAL gun violence (since that works so well)
then feel free to lecture what other Countries should or shouldn't do. :hehe:

[tca]

I has been quite fun and I appreciate the banter, but I'm played out.

Maybe I'll go polish one of my instruments of evil. Because I can. LOL

Yes Hellraiser, because Sharksbite looks like he is really upset with abit of playful serious discussion too. :cheeky:

[HellRaiser]

Didn't say Sharksbate was upset, but Sharksbate did put a lot of effort in the posts with what was said.
So, obviously has passion and took it serious, Sharksbate just gave up because seen it was pointless to continue lol.

End point remains the same... My last post says it all to a "T".

[tca]

Of course it pointless, he lives in a country where they think like that, i live in a country that thinks like this. Like i said a few posts before he gave up, had you bothered to read, i was arguing a moot point, as neither of us were going to budge.

I truly don't care what happens either way. I've just been bored.

[Nazkyn]

Sharksbate and anyone else who stands behind the legal ownership of guns...

Forget them, they don't get the true complexities of this issue muchless most social issues.
They think the whole issue ( as most issues) is black and white, simpleton answers for simpleton people.
Just thank your lucky stars they can't lobby. :hehe:

I think the point "furyous" was trying to make was...
Feel free ( Furyous) to correct me, if I am wrong about this,
Regardless, this is what I see anyway...

I see a common trend that seems to always happen on these forums on any given subject of programs or policies or laws etc..

A select few, sometimes many more that live in the UK or Australia (or any place really outside North America )
always bashing something about America or Americans. As if YOU somehow believe your better or have higher standards.:hidey:
Always so fast to critique or have the answers to problems for everyone else that YOU'S CAN'T FIX in your own Country. :cheeky:
Muchless be a lobbyist for anyone else Country. Like your individual systems and programs work so well.:hehe:
Talk about massive hypocrisy at work and at it's finest I must say.

The irony is, guns are either illegal to own for your citizens or a select few and your numbers
of gun crime/violence/murder are fairly disturbing per capita lol.
So.....ALL YOUR words are not only pointless but terribly hypocritical.

Maybe, When ya's can fix your own crime rates and ILLEGAL gun violence (since that works so well)
then feel free to lecture what other Countries should or shouldn't do. :hehe:

There's an old cliche - 'fight fire with fire', it doesn't work and that's what America seem to be doing. Most people seem to get guns for protection... against guns, doesn't that even seem a little bit crazy? I'm positive the problem goes a hell of a lot deeper than guns, but why not start on the surface and tighten gun control? It just seems like the logical solution. Just like I said before... The UK definitely has it's fair share of problems and gun crime is on the rise despite guns being almost totally illegal, but it's a different problem that requires different measures.

Maybe, When ya's can fix your own crime rates and ILLEGAL gun violence (since that works so well)
then feel free to lecture what other Countries should or shouldn't do. :hehe:

And that part is absolutely ridiculous. Atleast by having illegal gun violence over here it shows that the UK do actually attempt something, unlike America's attitude of "it's gonna happen anyway, so we'll just leave them legal :)", that's how it seems anyway.

[Zeus]

There's an old cliche - 'fight fire with fire', it doesn't work and that's what America seem to be doing. Most people seem to get guns for protection... against guns, doesn't that even seem a little bit crazy? I'm positive the problem goes a hell of a lot deeper than guns, but why not start on the surface and tighten gun control? It just seems like the logical solution. Just like I said before... The UK definitely has it's fair share of problems and gun crime is on the rise despite guns being almost totally illegal, but it's a different problem that requires different measures.


Thats what Hellraiser has been debating the whole time with you guys, he agrees with that statement if you had been reading Naz. Dont pretend you know about the citizens of the U.S.. You guys are always yank this, yank that, We can police our own problems over here on this side of the pond..

[Nazkyn]

Thats what Hellraiser has been debating the whole time with you guys, he agrees with that statement if you had been reading Naz. Dont pretend you know about the citizens of the U.S.. You guys are always yank this, yank that, We can police our own problems over here on this side of the pond..

That's funny... seeming as everyone who isn't from the US is just debating from the outside, the same as HellRaiser. And I thought HellRaiser did agree, until his last reply where I wasn't sure because I think everyone in here wants the same... basically tighter gun control, but from that, HellRaiser says "Forget them, they don't get the true complexities of this issue muchless most social issues.
They think the whole issue ( as most issues) is black and white, simpleton answers for simpleton people.
Just thank your lucky stars they can't lobby".

[HellRaiser]

There's an old cliche - 'fight fire with fire', it doesn't work and that's what America seem to be doing. Most people seem to get guns for protection... against guns, doesn't that even seem a little bit crazy?

No, actually a lot of people get guns because they enjoy target shooting, hunting or recreational sport.
The whole home defense issue is just a side bonus.
But they key here is, if criminals have guns anyway why would anyone in
their right mind not want to be able to defend against that? :glare:

I'm positive the problem goes a hell of a lot deeper than guns, but why not start on the surface and tighten gun control?

I been saying that all along, the USA gun laws are weak and seriously whacked.
If they had a system somewhat like ( Canada ) the problem wouldn't be out of control.

And that part is absolutely ridiculous. Atleast by having illegal gun violence over here it shows that the UK do actually attempt something, unlike America's attitude of "it's gonna happen anyway, so we'll just leave them legal :)", that's how it seems anyway.

Hardly ridicolous, did you not just say this...
gun crime is on the rise despite guns being almost totally illegal.

That is exactly why those who lobby against legal gun ownership have no case lol.
The UK can't handle squat but yet some are lecturing to other Countries the best way, lmao. :hehe:
But yet you state what I say is ridicolous? :O

Ya, "ban all guns it works, even though it don't work for us" lol.

Now if you don't find that terribly hypocritical, what can I say?

You (as some others) keep focusing on legal gun owners as the problem to gun violence when it's not the case.
When legal gun owners become the problem from gun violence we will let all other Countries know, don't worry. :|
Then maybe ya's would have an actual point and case to critique.

I don't know but if you ask me, considering were a Country ( Canada) who has had great History/ lineage to England,
who opposes and expresses the privelege to bear arms, apparently we found the happy medium per capita.
So I find it terribly difficult to hear gun lobbyists talk saying it don't work or better off without them.

I don't know, but any nation or Country who purposedly puts their legal law abidding citizens lives at risk on a daily basis
by keeping your citizens UN-ARMED to protect themself against violent criminals and loss of life
Doesn't sound like A NATION or Government for the people best interest at heart. :hehe:

[Zeus]

Well Hellraiser and Sharkbite won the fucking debate, bar none. They pwned you all with 10X the facts. Case Closed.

[HellRaiser]

Well Hellraiser and Sharkbite won the fucking debate, bar none. They pwned you all with 10X the facts. Case Closed.

:hehe:

I am done with this subject now too. Nothing can be added.

[Mitch]

Well Hellraiser and Sharkbite won the fucking debate, bar none. They pwned you all with 10X the facts. Case Closed.

Case Re-Opened.

This debate is not winnable. Case closed.

[Nazkyn]

No, actually a lot of people get guns because they enjoy target shooting, hunting or recreational sport.
The whole home defense issue is just a side bonus.
But they key here is, if criminals have guns anyway why would anyone in
their right mind not want to be able to defend against that? :glare:

That isn't key lol... So far in this thread we've established a few things - 1. That gun crime in the UK is close to that of America, despite not fighting fire with fire, and 2. Vice-versa... That America's gun crime rate is roughly the same as the UK's even when the criminals will probably be shot back at. So who is in their right minds? The UK... which is basically proof that fighting with fire does jack shit, or America?

I been saying that all along, the USA gun laws are weak and seriously whacked.
If they had a system somewhat like ( Canada ) the problem wouldn't be out of control.

I can't agree with that now. I think the US is that far gone that it's gonna take as long as it would take to decommission 40 nuclear power stations, so to speak lol.

Hardly ridicolous, did you not just say this...
gun crime is on the rise despite guns being almost totally illegal.

Yup, definitely. But I also said that it requires different measures. Don't forget that 99% of guns come from the black market over here, as opposed to what... 10-20% for America?

That is exactly why those who lobby against legal gun ownership have no case lol.
The UK can't handle squat but yet some are lecturing to other Countries the best way, lmao. :hehe:
But yet you state what I say is ridicolous? :O

Ya, "ban all guns it works, even though it don't work for us" lol.

Now if you don't find that terribly hypocritical, what can I say?

You (as some others) keep focusing on legal gun owners as the problem to gun violence when it's not the case.
When legal gun owners become the problem from gun violence we will let all other Countries know, don't worry. :|
Then maybe ya's would have an actual point and case to critique.

Sooo... if legal gun owners aren't contributing to the problem, why would you want to see gun laws tightened?

I don't know but if you ask me, considering were a Country ( Canada) who has had great History/ lineage to England,
who opposes and expresses the privelege to bear arms, apparently we found the happy medium per capita.
So I find it terribly difficult to hear gun lobbyists talk saying it don't work or better off without them.

I don't know, but any nation or Country who purposedly puts their legal law abidding citizens lives at risk on a daily basis
by keeping your citizens UN-ARMED to protect themself against violent criminals and loss of life
Doesn't sound like A NATION or Government for the people best interest at heart. :hehe:

And the rest is already answered :)

[Beli]

Yes.

Two rounds center body mass. Administer first aid if necessary. Call police to record the shooting and to drag their dead ass out of my house.

Were not afraid to fight for our freedoms.

:hehe: sorry that just made me have a lil laugh. if a criminal is stupid enough to trepass on private property, then meh they get what they deseve. although i much prefer setting the dogs on them. i have it posted "Beware of Dog" so they are warned. but the thing about letting them live, they come back and sue you. and they win :glare: but that leads to a whole different issue.

[Asshole]

Those figures dont factor in that most gun crimes in england involve 1 person being shot, in america such as school shootings its more than one person, also the higher amount of police percapita will also show more crimes are found/prosecuted/reported, than in america where you dont trust your police to potect you, and lets also factor in gun accidents that are not crimes and you will soon see the figures twist towards that of a ban

[Furyous]

Those figures dont factor in that most gun crimes in england involve 1 person being shot, in america such as school shootings its more than one person, also the higher amount of police percapita will also show more crimes are found/prosecuted/reported, than in america where you dont trust your police to potect you, and lets also factor in gun accidents that are not crimes and you will soon see the figures twist towards that of a ban


They also don't figure in the fact that most brits believe anything they see on TV and are far more ignorant than they think.
/sarcasm

[steff]

I don't know why Brits always think they've got the one and only answer to the worlds problems... :hehe:

Isn't that America?: Guns!

[steff]

Why isn't this number zero in the UK?

Murders with firearms
#4 United States: 8,259
#20 United Kingdom: 62


Because you can't completely eradicate the guns you retard. Why are you even in SD?

[Asshole]

They also don't figure in the fact that most brits believe anything they see on TV and are far more ignorant than they think.
/sarcasm

Believe what i see on tv?


im afraid if you actually READ the thread then you would see all facts and figures, excluding the commonly known school and accidental shootings were already in this thread, and im not sure theres a day goes by without newspaper news of one or more shootings, accidentall or school massacre related in america..

as for being ignorant, to a lot of your, and other countries society maybe, but seeing as we hear so much about these shootings then i think thats a point im not, especially seeing as they hardly report ALL cases.. perhaps you are blinkered because you feel more of a man with a gun in your hand?

[Furyous]

Believe what i see on tv?


im afraid if you actually READ the thread then you would see all facts and figures, excluding the commonly known school and accidental shootings were already in this thread, and im not sure theres a day goes by without newspaper news of one or more shootings, accidentall or school massacre related in america..

as for being ignorant, to a lot of your, and other countries society maybe, but seeing as we hear so much about these shootings then i think thats a point im not, especially seeing as they hardly report ALL cases.. perhaps you are blinkered because you feel more of a man with a gun in your hand?

I happen to own quite a few guns. You are ridiculously retarded. There are not school shootings on a daily basis. Just shut the fuck up and go polish your knives.

Thanks.

[Nazkyn]

:hehe: Re-read mate :hidey:

[Sharksbite!]

*******************WARNING************************ *

To all those planning on visiting the United States now, or at anytime in the future.

America is in a state of crises. Gun violence has reached epidemic proportions. Millions will have been shot dead by the time you finish reading this.

If you feel you must make the trip, and simply cannot be dissuaded, we advise that you bring your own gun for protection. For those of you living abroad and in countries that do not allow you to own guns, a gun will be provided to you upon your arrival.

Should you lose your gun while visiting these United States, feel free to approach any small child on any street corner, they will surely have one for sale.
Bring cash, because most do not accept credit cards.

If you happen to be involved in a fire fight while visiting one of our many tourist destinations, draw your gun and shoot randomly at whatever you see. The locals will more than likely mistake you for one of their own and stop shooting. Move away slowly and continue on about your business.

As we do not see conditions ever changing for the better, this warning will, and must remain in effect until hell freezes over.

Thank You and if you happen to live through the experience, please come again.

SB!

[Furyous]

PURE GENIUS!!!

However you forgot to warn about visiting ANY school on ANY day! We must also warn our foreign companions that this is the most dangerous place you can find yourself and if you know that you will be within a three mile radius of any school, you might want to invest in some body armor (armour in UK and Aus) as this is the only way you might escape with your lives!

[HellRaiser]

Hahahaha, both well said..

[Asshole]

Odd that you guys are going off into a blind fury of ranting when you quite obviousley are not reading what i wrote properly..

especially you furyous..


Maybe i hit a nerve

[XXX]

*******************WARNING************************ *

To all those planning on visiting the United States now, or at anytime in the future.

America is in a state of crises. Gun violence has reached epidemic proportions. Millions will have been shot dead by the time you finish reading this.

If you feel you must make the trip, and simply cannot be dissuaded, we advise that you bring your own gun for protection. For those of you living abroad and in countries that do not allow you to own guns, a gun will be provided to you upon your arrival.

Should you lose your gun while visiting these United States, feel free to approach any small child on any street corner, they will surely have one for sale.
Bring cash, because most do not accept credit cards.

If you happen to be involved in a fire fight while visiting one of our many tourist destinations, draw your gun and shoot randomly at whatever you see. The locals will more than likely mistake you for one of their own and stop shooting. Move away slowly and continue on about your business.

As we do not see conditions ever changing for the better, this warning will, and must remain in effect until hell freezes over.

Thank You and if you happen to live through the experience, please come again.

SB!


:hehe: Uhmmm,, Correction,,, We now except (And happily take them from tourists at gunpoint) credit cards if not soley for the pourpose of resale on the internet,,,, Thank you for your support,,,,

[Calienta]

I don't believe legal gun owners contribute to the problem at all, and I don't think guns should be banned.

In Canada, like Hellraiser said, we have strict gun laws but MANY people own guns and use them for pleasure or whatever. HOWEVER, I feel like it's a frame of mind that contributes to gun crime instead of whether there are laws or not. Canada has plenty of guns and yet barely any gun crime. I don't feel like I need to be packing when I hit the slums of Ottawa or Toronto :P Sure there are gun-related crimes and murders and there have been school shootings, but as a country we don't feel like everybody is out to harm us, so shooting somebody is not our first reaction and nor is it really the first plan of action for a criminal.

I think that might be the key difference? The fact that minimal dangerous crimes = a feeling of safety = a happier population = less dangerous crimes?

As for me, I just let my dogs do the talkin' :D

[HellRaiser]

Exactly Calienta. :)

This is what these peeps outside North America, DON'T GET about legal guns here.
They just go on and on and on about guns are bad and use the USA as the "be all and end all example" of why it don't work.

[Beli]

ok somewhere in all these pages of stuff i missed the explanation that i was looking for. if someone can recap for me in the shortest, most simply stated way.... how is outlawing legal guns going to make anything better when the flow/use of illegal guns isn't stopped/handled?

some facts:
CA State Law requires that anyone who is addmited to a psychiatric facility on a 5150 status (3 day hold) for either being a danger to him/herself or a danger to others must be reported to the Department of Justice by the facility. If your name is reported to the DOJ, you will immediately have a 5 year firearm prohibition placed on you. this means you are prohibited from owning, having in your possesion or purchasing a firemar for a 5 year period.
you do have the option to petition the court to have your rights restored.

Federal Law requires that any patient in a psychiatric facility who has been certified a 5250 (14 day hold) on the grounds of being a danger to him/herself, danger to others, and gravely disabled must also be reported to the DOJ. even if previously reported for 5150. once reported you will have a Federal firearms prohibition placed on you. this means that you are prohibited from owning, having in your possession, or purchasing a firearm for lifetime.
currently there is no system in place for requesting the restoration of your rights under the Federal Law.

uhm.. have you any idea how many of those DOJ reports we fill out at my work? i would say half of California can't buy guns by now. at least not legally.

[Nazkyn]

This is getting stupid lol. The USA is the perfect example of gun laws gone wrong and what every other country should see as an example of what to avoid. And of course legal gun owners contribute to the problem, if a gang raid a gun store and get away with loads of guns, I would say it's the store owners fault, and then we have a pack of criminals with some stolen guns because they're in the country in the first place because people wanna have 'fun' shooting cans or whatever. That legal gun trade operates because of legal gun owners, so they definitely contribute indirectly. I don't believe that smuggled guns are the majority at all.

Here's the German translation courtesy of AltaVista for those having trouble understanding -

Dieses erhält dummes lol. Die USA ist das vollkommene Beispiel der Gewehrgesetze, die falsch gegangen werden und was jedes andere Land als Beispiel von was sehen sollte zu vermeiden. Und selbstverständlich tragen zugelassene Gewehrinhaber zum Problem, wenn ein Gruppeüberfall ein Waffengeschäft bei und erhalten weg mit Lasten der Gewehren, würde ich sagen, daß es die Speicherinhaberstörung ist und dann wir einen Satz Verbrecher mit einigen gestohlenen Gewehren haben, weil sie im Land an erster Stelle sind, weil Leute ' des Spaßes ' haben möchten schießende Dosen, oder was auch immer. Daß zugelassener Gewehrhandel wegen der zugelassenen Gewehrinhaber, also sie definitiv funktioniert, tragen Sie indirekt bei. Ich glaube nicht, daß geschmuggelte Gewehren die Majorität an allen sind.

[Calienta]

I agree with you that guns being legal in the states contributes to their availability for criminals. I think Canada has it okay with guns being legal as we have not warped to the point that the states have. I don't know what would work for the states because they seem to have the mentality of "if he comes on my lawn I'ma bust a cap in his ass", etc etc. Guns seem to be such a problem already I don't know what banning them would do except keep the honest citizens from a way to protect themselves.

It's all just blown up in their faces!

[Puppy Dogs and Ice Cream]

guns dont kill people.... i kill people

[Spork!!!]

you kill fish. ;p

We used to have plenty of guns here in Aus. too. As a teen/young adult we would always take a .22 rifle and a 12g shotgun when we went camping. Unfortunatly after 1 massacre too many (Port Arthur) the gov't made gun ownership more difficult, and banned many weapons completley. - Mostly assault rifles, which most "sporting shooters" (home defence was never the main reason for gun ownership here) do not need.
Our rates of gun crime have decreased dramaticly as a result, but serious assaults with all sorts of weapons (non-firearm) continue on our streets and in our homes.
Roadsigns are a little safer now (yes, plenty of rednecks here too) but on the telly last night they reported two kangaroos, from an endangered species with arrows in them. I guess ppl. with that mentallity will always find a way.
For me, I'm happy not to own a gun now, as I have a 15 yo son who's fascinated by them and I couldn't live with myself if he found mine (like I found my father's before me...) and an accident happened.
I wouldn't mind a decent bow for some target pracice though.

[Colonel Sanders]

Maybe you should educate your son then? I mean not to sound like an ass but if yer really worried about a 15 year old blowing his brains out "accidentally" from finding a weapon then maybe you should educate him more rather than shutting him out of the topic completely.

[Spork!!!]

You ever tried telling a 15yo anything? My son has Aspergers (a type of autism) so a fixation is a FIXATION! Seriously though, I knew sneaking off with dad's gun was wrong. I knew putting the ammo in was wrong. Didn't mean for the neighbour to think the mafia was after him after a ricocchet went thru his window. ;O

[Asshole]

its not really about education KAF dropping a gun can cause it to go off right?

besides the military is there to teach people about the use of guns, or police.. and they should be the only people allowed them imo.. i even think all police in britain should be allowed guns, or seeing as they patrol in twos at least one of them should

[steff]

If police naturally carry guns then criminals will be more inclined to carry them to even it up. I know some already do but I reckon more would be seen with guns.

[TJ60]

it's funny were getting advice from people in a country that kill each other because their footy team lost, or because of what church they go too. I agree with hellraiser on this one. That lame comment TCA made about be a real freedom fighter and fight with your fist.....yea i bet the guy that just broke into your house or trying to rape your wife or daughter is going to lay his knife or gun down so the two of u can duke it out. You brits just need to stay out of the whole damn gun laws debate, last time i checked I haven't heard of any Americans going on shooting spree's in the UK.

[Nazkyn]

How many times has that been said now? If HellRaiser is qualified to give advice, then why not Brits, Australians etc...? Would I also be right in saying that the USA is the most interfering country in the world? I think I would :)

[TJ60]

boo hoo elect a prime minister who isn't a lap dog. Or at least someone who doesn't hide his religion. I guess the next thing your going to say is the U.K. doesn't put their nose where it doesn't belongs either right?

[Colonel Sanders]

boo hoo, who gives a fuck, why is this thread still alive.

[Nazkyn]

boo hoo elect a prime minister who isn't a lap dog. Or at least someone who doesn't hide his religion. I guess the next thing your going to say is the U.K. doesn't put their nose where it doesn't belongs either right?

The UK definitely does, but you seem to have an awesome ability to completely misinterpret what I actually said :hehe: But for future reference, i'll feel free to comment on your piece of shit of a country wherever I feel fit and you feel free to do the same :P

[Furyous]

LMFAO. A FUCKIN brit calling my country a piece of shit! :roflmao:

[Nazkyn]

LMFAO. A FUCKIN brit calling my country a piece of shit! :roflmao:

Yeah, I didn't mean it how you seem to have taken it though :)

[Tca]

. That lame comment TCA made about be a real freedom fighter and fight with your fist.....yea i bet the guy that just broke into your house or trying to rape your wife or daughter is going to lay his knife or gun down so the two of u can duke it out.

Well, i was going to leave this entire topic alone, as yous aren't going to see any other side other then your own (suprise suprise).

Yes, because that always happens over here too, but i could state (this is hypothetically if i even still cared about this argument) where a bunch of breakins over here have happened, the robbers have had guns and the shit beaten out of them or stabbed.

Yes, i can see a lame comment. :eh:

[TJ60]

oh now that i've had about 2 days to think about it, I can validate Hellraiser's points because he actually lives on the same continent unlike the rest of you across the pond:grin:

[HellRaiser]

In regards to statements of me not living in the USA to be in the same boat as others overseas speaking on it, etc...

Just for the record, Canada and the USA are fairly close on a majority of policies
and run in synch economically, not to mention a 2 billion dollar a day trade.
Alot of our news and the US news is in relation , so we as Canadians are quite informed of US situations and concerns etc.

Aside from this, I have lived in the USA for quite some time, in Allentown, PA.
I also have had the pleasure to visit for stretches of time to many States and experienced it first hand.
So I think I have a really good handle on US issues and concerns and relations.
Hence, the only thing that truly differentiates Canada and the USA is an invisible border and political parties.

So ya I would say those preaching overseas or being a lobbyist on an issue they can't possibly REALTE TO OR UNDERSTAND is amusing at best.

[Uganja]

So ya I would say those preaching overseas or being a lobbyist on an issue they can't possibly REALTE TO OR UNDERSTAND is amusing at best.

but of course, your abiltity to understand our culture is unprecidented? :roll:




Look. Main problem with this debate here is that those protesting against legal ownership of guns are not US citizens (or north american as seems to be the trend in this thread).... so how could we possibily know whats right and will work best for your country?
Quite correct, i do have to agree. The mentality towards gun ownership stateside is completely different to us across the pond from you. And I guess historically, always has been (?) - The media in this country also does brainwash us over your laws, everytime there is a school shooting (which in all fairness to me is quite shockingly common) the media get right on the "when are the USA going to ban guns" bandwagon. This is media though, and those manipulated by such propaganda are hardly worth worrying about anyway :grin: - After all the only reason its mentioned after every school shooting, is that it took a school shooting over here for us to finally place a ban on ALL guns in the UK. So us english being english means that everyone should follow suit, Cos we're always bloody right, you hear that old chap?! ;)

What i have REAL difficulty understanding however, is why this topic of conversation has turned what i'd consider regular, nice forum posters, into complete ignorant fuckwits! (with the exception of you hellraiser, you've always been a fuckwit hehe ) - I personally think the power behind gun ownership, which can feed mans already inflated ego (as clearly presented by a few of you in here) to a point where listening to any other rational or irrational solutions is unthinkable. - That to me is the ultimate danger behind guns.... the power. (guns don't kill people, people kill people)

Of course, this is just my opinion from someone who has never owned a gun...... but in all honesty, if it was legal in my country (and everyone else had one), i probably would too.

[HellRaiser]

but of course, your abiltity to understand our culture is unprecidented? :roll:

But were not discussing YOUR culture or trying to understand it. :hidey:
The point remains the same regardless of culture or where you reside.
Illegal gun crime and violence is just as bad, if you do it per capita.
Has nothing to do with legal gun owners as part of any problem.

so how could we possibily know whats right and will work best for your country?

Exactly, why so many preaching or lobbying then? :hehe:

it took a school shooting over here for us to finally place a ban on ALL guns in the UK.

Like that ended all your gun violence crime. :eh:
Reality is, any kid who wants a gun (like wanting anything at any cost) will get one.
You make it sound like it's difficult to get a gun in the UK lol.

So us english being english means that everyone should follow suit, Cos we're always bloody right, you hear that old chap?! ;)

Ya it's exactly that superiority god complex that Brits accuse Americans of embracing lol.
But then again Canada broke away from the foolish monarchy hahaha.
Last I checked were better off being our own nation lol.

The media in this country also does brainwash us over your laws.

That pretty much sums up the nativity and gullable UK mentality then lol.

What i have REAL difficulty understanding however, is why this topic of conversation has turned what i'd consider regular, nice forum posters, into complete ignorant fuckwits! (with the exception of you hellraiser, you've always been a fuckwit hehe ) -

Oh I don't know, maybe because when it becomes about issues of rights to defend and protect your own mortality and those you love by legal means with a threat to take that away, we don't FLAP OVER LIKE FISH AND ALLOW a government to dictate policy like Hmmmmm some others wankers do. :hehe:

I personally think the power behind gun ownership, which can feed mans already inflated ego (as clearly presented by a few of you in here) to a point where listening to any other rational or irrational solutions is unthinkable. -

Well I guess that takes you out of the discussion immediately lol

Of course, this is just my opinion from someone who has never owned a gun...... but in all honesty, if it was legal in my country (and everyone else had one), i probably would too.

Must be good to be a hypocrite then eh? :hehe:

[Asshole]

Lol i like how you said our not trying to discuss or understand our culture blahblahblah, the go onto say we are a nation of gullible idiots, along with whatever his name is at the top of the page implying that britain is a peice of shit,

At some point in this thread you guys went from rational arguments to mudslinging, which leads me to believe you can see where we are coming from and dont like it, because it would mean the loss of the only possession you have that makes you feel like a man

[Beli]

Lol i like how you said our not trying to discuss or understand our culture blahblahblah, the go onto say we are a nation of gullible idiots, along with whatever his name is at the top of the page implying that britain is a peice of shit,

At some point in this thread you guys went from rational arguments to mudslinging, which leads me to believe you can see where we are coming from and dont like it, because it would mean the loss of the only possession you have that makes you feel like a man

i would say that owning a gun does NOT make me feel like a man at all. losing would not make me feel any less of a man either.

the point is, most of you (UK residents) are reacting to what you have seen on movies or television. come to the US, or even come to California. you can go on ride alongs with the local police departments. after that you might have a different view. at least you would have an educated view and wouldn't be relying on someone's twisted view of reality.

[wats_up]

well for one read the title in the " U.S. !!!! " and guns are a necessity to protect yourself and family from them scum of earth. such as crackheads ,thieves,child molesters,rapists. how would you feel if one of your family had something terrible happen to them and it could have been prevented by the use of a firearm? , im trying to stand up for what we have a right too. wouldnt you ? or do you live in a communist country? so keep your bullshit comments for the insult section im just looking for help from my fellow americans and fellow gun owners who feel the right to protect their "2nd amendment rights to bear arms.."or in this case ownership of. espically now at the time of crisis in the world we live in. so stop your crying and wipe your tears just because you cant own a gun in your demented little land there Mickey. go back to your bar stool while guys like me put our lives on the line to make the world a safe place to live for people like u Suzie homemaker. GOODNITE ELVIS HAS.... LEFT THE BUILDING!!!!!

I only read up to that word and no way am I readin the rest of the thread, all I have to say with that statement it, I wish

[HellRaiser]

Lol i like how you said our not trying to discuss or understand our culture blahblahblah, the go onto say we are a nation of gullible idiots, along with whatever his name is at the top of the page implying that britain is a peice of shit.

But this isn't about your culture, the discussion was mentioned and targeted against the US and anyone else who bears legal arms.
Reality is, as Beli said and Uganja admitted, you are a gullable nation because you do buy the media frenzy crap.
The only thing directed towards your culture or any other culture is the FACT
that illegal gun crime violence is usually ON PAR PER CAPITA. That prety much
destroys and eliminates any position claiming bans on guns works lmao. :hehe:

Please show anyone here how banned guns works, lmao.

At some point in this thread you guys went from rational arguments to mudslinging, which leads me to believe you can see where we are coming from and dont like it, because it would mean the loss of the only possession you have that makes you feel like a man

Oh spare me lol, your talking to someone in Canada not the US.
Everyone argument falls flat relating it to here.

Oddily enough those who claim it became about mud slinging are usually responsible for originally slinging lol.
How many times on these forums has UK peeps insulted the US or it's people?
It's not my fault the UK peeps seem to have an attitude and righteous position lol.
Like the English are an authority on anything to be lecturing to any other Country on how to run one lol.
So when the shoe is on the other foot, it no longer applys I guess lol.

[Asshole]

But this isn't about your culture, the discussion was mentioned and targeted against the US and anyone else who bears legal arms.
Reality is, as Beli said and Uganja admitted, you are a gullable nation because you do buy the media frenzy crap.
The only thing directed towards your culture or any other culture is the FACT
that illegal gun crime violence is usually ON PAR PER CAPITA. That prety much
destroys and eliminates any position claiming bans on guns works lmao. :hehe:

Please show anyone here how banned guns works, lmao.



Oh spare me lol, your talking to someone in Canada not the US.
Everyone argument falls flat relating it to here.

Oddily enough those who claim it became about mud slinging are usually responsible for originally slinging lol.
How many times on these forums has UK peeps insulted the US or it's people?
It's not my fault the UK peeps seem to have an attitude and righteous position lol.
Like the English are an authority on anything to be lecturing to any other Country on how to run one lol.
So when the shoe is on the other foot, it no longer applys I guess lol.

1) and this is directed at beli too, You have a very warped idea of the UK, sayign we all just buy into a media frenzy is arrogant and narrow minded,

For one point its the media that have spawned celeberities, which country has the bigger celebrity following?. It would be america, a country that just cant get enuff of them, so surely that shows you lot buy into media, just as much if not more than we do?,

As for blaming our views on the media, the media does not invent school shootings on such a regular occurence, they do not make up stories about jilted husbands/wives taking revenge with thier pistols, it also does not make up stories about children accidentally shooting themselves.. all jay said, that you guys have taken way out of proportion is that everytime theres a school shooting, somebody mentions perhaps america should tighten its gun laws, i cant see how you managed to warp that into every brit being blinded by the media into thinking weapons made to kill are nothing more than a hany tool around the house..


2) As for arguments between the US and the UK hellraiser, they hardly ever happen, its usually on something such as this where you for instance are to arrogant to see that you are doing exactly the same thing we are and believe each others country is wrong on their gun views, however having seen some of your other posts int he forum i expected no less..

as for the "you did it first blah blah" that dosent warrant much of a response, and neither does you saying our country is run like shit, id rather live here than there so keep such idiotic comments to yourself, they have no place ina debate on guns, and just futher prove that somewhere in this thread, somebody hit your nerve

[Calienta]

The US is hard to compare with other countries because of how far along the situation is. Canada has legal guns and we have nowhere near the amount of gun crime, and probably less than the UK at that (I don't know but you don't hear of gun crimes here much at all, and also judging from posts discussing the illegal weapons being brought into the UK).

The US's situation currently has little to do with the legality of guns and more to do with the mentality, like I said before. If it was the issue of legality then Canada would have loads of corner store shootings or perps coming in with guns and as high a rate per capita of gun crimes as the States.

Buying into the media shouldn't have much to do with this discussion. Can't we base our opinions on facts and statistics, instead of what the news tells us about each others' countries?

[Nazkyn]

In regards to statements of me not living in the USA to be in the same boat as others overseas speaking on it, etc...

Just for the record, Canada and the USA are fairly close on a majority of policies
and run in synch economically, not to mention a 2 billion dollar a day trade.
Alot of our news and the US news is in relation , so we as Canadians are quite informed of US situations and concerns etc.

Aside from this, I have lived in the USA for quite some time, in Allentown, PA.
I also have had the pleasure to visit for stretches of time to many States and experienced it first hand.
So I think I have a really good handle on US issues and concerns and relations.
Hence, the only thing that truly differentiates Canada and the USA is an invisible border and political parties.

So ya I would say those preaching overseas or being a lobbyist on an issue they can't possibly REALTE TO OR UNDERSTAND is amusing at best.

Do you think the UK is a third world country or something? We can be just as informed as Canadians and infact Americans on American news. I absolutely LOVE how Canada can be pretty informed on US issues, concerns and relations due to the news, then the UK is (in your words) 'a gullable nation because you do buy the media frenzy crap'.

[Beli]

Asshole..my Aunt and Uncle are from the UK. my Uncle celebrated his 80th birthday recently. born in the UK and had lived there the majority of his life. he does not share your views. in fact he does own a hand gun. i have seen it on one of our many visits to the UK. i am pretty sure he owns it legally. what his profession was before he retired ... he was always very evasive about it. but i think that his gun has something to do with his previous employment in the UK.
so i consider myself much better informed on UK culture thatn you are on US culture.
Naz.. asking how Canada is more informed about the US .. come on now. we do share a border.
in i think my orignal post i asked this yet no one can give me an answer. instead you chose to act like children argueing over candy.

how does making guns illegal take the guns out of the hands of criminals for which the guns they possess already ARE illegal?

to me, this is skipping a huge step. first take the already illegal guns away from the bad guys. after that is accomplished, then we can talk about making guns totally illegal for everyone. i am sure you have heard the saying.. taking a knife to a gun fight... that is essential the situation you would be placing the legal gun owners in. criminals would know that people were not armed and would commit gun related crimes more wontanly.

[Asshole]

I still dont understand why you need the gun fight,

Steff said earlier in this thread, that if the police in the uk were armed, it would just make criminals get illegal guns too, all the situation does is escalate..


i bet it works the other way round too.

Besides if you justify owning a gun as "to protect from criminals" if the criminals no longer have guns whats your argument to have it?? Somebody enters your house to rob you, you gonna shoot them because they dont have a gun?

So whos gonna take the morally highground "innocent" people or the criminals??

[HellRaiser]

1) and this is directed at beli too, You have a very warped idea of the UK, sayign we all just buy into a media frenzy is arrogant and narrow minded.

I don't have any warped idea of the UK, Ya know that thing called Satellite? :hehe: We get a few UK channels.

For one point its the media that have spawned celeberities, which country has the bigger celebrity following?. It would be america, a country that just cant get enuff of them, so surely that shows you lot buy into media, just as much if not more than we do?

What does any of this got to do with buying into laws or policies?

you guys have taken way out of proportion is that everytime theres a school shooting, somebody mentions perhaps america should tighten its gun laws.

You and I both know this is not what the debate or discussion is about.
You's are not debating or arguing about tightening gun laws, it's about BANNING GUNS.
It's about the stance of not having guns, period.

No one is arguing against tightening gun laws, I think everyone agree's with that fully.
Gun laws in the States need to be in check.

its usually on something such as this where you for instance are to arrogant to see that you are doing exactly the same thing we are and believe each others country is wrong on their gun views, however having seen some of your other posts int he forum i expected no less..

Lmao, it's not about who's Country is right or wrong, it's about what works and what doesn't.
In our Country it works, and you all keep telling me guns should be banned.
So if this is any indication of my other posts arrogance, I stand as usual correct. :hehe:

neither does you saying our country is run like shit, id rather live here than there so keep such idiotic comments to yourself, they have no place ina debate on guns, and just futher prove that somewhere in this thread, somebody hit your nerve

No one ever said your Country is run like shit lol, subjecture on your part.
Oddily enough the arrogance you claim of me, you do a fine part here lol.
I didn't realize I made immigration application on your part to come to Canada to turn down? lol
How can someone hit my nerve? Gun laws and legal guns works In Canada.
We don't need to dictate or control our population muchless preach or lobby.

Canada has legal guns and we have nowhere near the amount of gun crime, and probably less than the UK at that (I don't know but you don't hear of gun crimes here much at all.)

Ya, that is what these peeps can't seem to understand and fathom while they are preaching and lobbying saying ban guns, it works lol.

Do you think the UK is a third world country or something? We can be just as informed.

No, I never said the UK is a third world nation.
But your media is very bias. Which does not help a case of unbias opinions.

Reality is, a lot of people resort to the media to base their sole understanding on issues or concern and thus opinion.
How many people actually look into any given subject or issue? Not many I would say.

Steff said earlier in this thread, that if the police in the uk were armed, it would just make criminals get illegal guns too, all the situation does is escalate..

Man have you been reading at all here? Are you are in a time machine? lol
They criminals already have them. :P I know millions of them are in the streets as a FACT lol.

Besides if you justify owning a gun as "to protect from criminals" if the criminals no longer have guns whats your argument to have it??

Your talking stupid, you can't stop criminals from having guns, so using that as your stance is retarded.
Plus whoever said the only reason to have guns is for protection?

[Nazkyn]

Asshole..my Aunt and Uncle are from the UK. my Uncle celebrated his 80th birthday recently. born in the UK and had lived there the majority of his life. he does not share your views. in fact he does own a hand gun. i have seen it on one of our many visits to the UK. i am pretty sure he owns it legally. what his profession was before he retired ... he was always very evasive about it. but i think that his gun has something to do with his previous employment in the UK.
so i consider myself much better informed on UK culture thatn you are on US culture.
Naz.. asking how Canada is more informed about the US .. come on now. we do share a border.
in i think my orignal post i asked this yet no one can give me an answer. instead you chose to act like children argueing over candy.

how does making guns illegal take the guns out of the hands of criminals for which the guns they possess already ARE illegal?

to me, this is skipping a huge step. first take the already illegal guns away from the bad guys. after that is accomplished, then we can talk about making guns totally illegal for everyone. i am sure you have heard the saying.. taking a knife to a gun fight... that is essential the situation you would be placing the legal gun owners in. criminals would know that people were not armed and would commit gun related crimes more wontanly.

Canada might share a border with the US, but I would put a bet on most Canadians not giving a crap what's going on in the US, and at the same time make a seemingly ridiculous claim that ANYWHERE in the world can be just as informed as Canada or the USA itself on US political agenda. Point being, Canada is a SEPERATE country... plus they like it that way.

[Asshole]

I don't have any warped idea of the UK, Ya know that thing called Satellite? :hehe: We get a few UK channels.



What does any of this got to do with buying into laws or policies?



You and I both know this is not what the debate or discussion is about.
You's are not debating or arguing about tightening gun laws, it's about BANNING GUNS.
It's about the stance of not having guns, period.

No one is arguing against tightening gun laws, I think everyone agree's with that fully.
Gun laws in the States need to be in check.



Lmao, it's not about who's Country is right or wrong, it's about what works and what doesn't.
In our Country it works, and you all keep telling me guns should be banned.
So if this is any indication of my other posts arrogance, I stand as usual correct. :hehe:



No one ever said your Country is run like shit lol, subjecture on your part.
Oddily enough the arrogance you claim of me, you do a fine part here lol.
I didn't realize I made immigration application on your part to come to Canada to turn down? lol
How can someone hit my nerve? Gun laws and legal guns works In Canada.
We don't need to dictate or control our population muchless preach or lobby.



Ya, that is what these peeps can't seem to understand and fathom while they are preaching and lobbying saying ban guns, it works lol.



No, I never said the UK is a third world nation.
But your media is very bias. Which does not help a case of unbias opinions.

Reality is, a lot of people resort to the media to base their sole understanding on issues or concern and thus opinion.
How many people actually look into any given subject or issue? Not many I would say.



Man have you been reading at all here? Are you are in a time machine? lol
They criminals already have them. :P I know millions of them are in the streets as a FACT lol.



Your talking stupid, you can't stop criminals from having guns, so using that as your stance is retarded.
Plus whoever said the only reason to have guns is for protection?

I read the first line where you blew your whole argument for the last few pages out the water..


"I don't have any warped idea of the UK, Ya know that thing called Satellite? We get a few UK channels."


Thats either sarcasm thats not gone over very well or ill have to reveal to you "Shock horror" that we have a thing called satellite too and its got american channels on it!!

So saying we have no idea about the us, then claiming your a mastermind on the UK because you watched a few tv shows is kinda stupid

[HellRaiser]

I read the first line where you blew your whole argument for the last few pages out the water.. "I don't have any warped idea of the UK, Ya know that thing called Satellite? We get a few UK channels." Thats either sarcasm thats not gone over very well or ill have to reveal to you "Shock horror" that we have a thing called satellite too and its got american channels on it!! So saying we have no idea about the us, then claiming your a mastermind on the UK because you watched a few tv shows is kinda stupid

Oh spare me lol, By watching your BIAS MEDIA, it shows clearly what is being FED to UK people.
So naturally just like any population anywhere that is fed propaganda, a majority of it's population will BELIEVE IT.

Ring a bell close to home maybe. :hehe:

[Asshole]

Oh spare me lol, By watching your BIAS MEDIA, it shows clearly what is being FED to UK people.
So naturally just like any population anywhere that is fed propaganda, a majority of it's population will BELIEVE IT.

Ring a bell close to home maybe. :hehe:

No because we see your news programs too, so clearley according to your argument By watching your BIAS MEDIA, it shows clearly what is being FED to US people.

So naturally just like any population anywhere that is fed propaganda, a majority of it's population will BELIEVE IT. Kinda like the post at the start of the thread huh ? thats propaganda

[Uganja]

While i'll quite gladly admit alot of the UK media (inclusive of tv, newspapers, radio) is politically or otherwise bias.... I refuse to believe its as bad as in the US yet, we're only a few years behind - Granted, but its not quite as transparent.... we do have regulatory authorities in place to ensure bullshit isn't written or spoken, without there being some truth to it..... It's just more a question of delivery rather than anything.

Assuming everyone from the UK is naive as a result, isn't fair, nor representative of the countries view as a whole.

Lets be honest (going back to the debate at hand: guns): Students recently did get shot tragically at Virginia tech and they have happened quite alot in the past:

* University of Texas at Austin massacre - Austin, Texas, United States; August 1, 1966
* Orangeburg Massacre - Orangeburg, South Carolina, United States; February 8, 1968
* Kent State shootings - Kent, Ohio, United States; May 4, 1970
* Jackson State killings - Jackson, Mississippi, United States; May 14-15, 1970
* California State University, Fullerton Library Massacre - Fullerton, California, United States; July 12, 1976
* Cleveland Elementary School shooting - San Diego, California, United States; January 29, 1979
* Parkway South Junior High School shooting - Saint Louis, Missouri, United States; January 20, 1983
* Stockton massacre - Stockton, California, United States; January 17, 1989
* University of Iowa shooting - Iowa City, Iowa, United States; November 1, 1991
* Simon's Rock College of Bard shooting - Great Barrington, Massachusetts, United States; December 14, 1992
* Lindhurst High School shooting - Marysville, California, United States; May 1, 1992
* East Carter High School shooting - Grayson, Kentucky, United States; January 18, 1993
* Richland High School shooting - Lynnville, Tennessee, United States; November 15, 1995.
* Frontier Junior High shooting - Moses Lake, Washington, United States; February 2, 1996
* Bethel High School shooting - Bethel, Alaska, United States; February 19, 1997
* Pearl High School shooting, Pearl, Mississippi, United States; October 1, 1997
* Heath High School shooting, West Paducah, Kentucky, United States; December 1, 1997
* Jonesboro massacre - Jonesboro, Arkansas, United States; March 24, 1998
* Parker Middle School Shooting - Edinboro, Pennsylvania; April 24, 1998
* Thurston High School shooting - Springfield, Oregon, United States; May 21, 1998
* Columbine High School massacre - near Littleton, Colorado, United States; April 20, 1999
* Heritage High School shooting - Conyers, Georgia, United States; May 20, 1999
* Buell Elementary School shooting - Mount Morris Township, Michigan, United States; February 29, 2000
* Santana High School shooting - Santee, California, United States; March 5, 2001
* Granite Hills High School shooting - El Cajon, California; March 22, 2001
* Appalachian School of Law shooting - Grundy, Virginia, United States; January 16, 2002
* Red Lion Area Junior High School shootings - Red Lion, Pennsylvania, United States; April 24, 2003
* Rocori High School shootings - Cold Spring, Minnesota, United States; September 24, 2003
* Red Lake High School massacre - Red Lake, Minnesota, United States; March 21, 2005
* Campbell County High School shooting - Jacksboro, Tennessee: November 8, 2005
* Pine Middle School shooting - Reno, Nevada, United States; March 14, 2006
* Platte Canyon High School shooting - Bailey, Colorado, United States; September 27, 2006
* Weston High School shooting, Cazenovia, Wisconsin September 29, 2006
* Amish school shooting - Nickel Mines, Lancaster County, Pennsylvania, United States; October 2, 2006
* Virginia Tech massacre - Blacksburg, Virginia, United States; April 16, 2007
* Delaware State University shooting - Dover, Delaware, United States; September 21, 2007
* SuccessTech Academy shooting - Cleveland, Ohio, United States; October 10, 2007


Everytime this happens: it makes international news
Everytime this happens: the gun question debate gets re-sparked by our media

So if "say" I was trying to base any sort of opinion on gun ownership, just solely on those facts. I think its safe to say it would be pretty easy.

But it isn't that simple is it. I know that & you know that.

Guns are illegal here.

Why?

[Furyous]

Guns are illegal here.

Why?

Because your fellow country men rolled over and decided to let your government take them away?

Seriously, the majority of Americans don't see eye to eye with much of European policy. Many people from the left in the US think we need to be more "Europeanized", if there is such a word, but just like the country I live in now (Chile), the majority of us backward hick ass, hill billy Americans don't wish to be like you. I'm sorry for the misunderstanding, but it's just the way it's going to be.

Let me give you a little example of what I'm talking about here with a business spin on it...

JC Penny, an American department store decided to come to Chile. They came in here with a superior attitude and were bound and determined to run an American-Style department store in Chile. Sounds like a great idea. They went bankrupt and pulled out in under a year. They could not adapt to the Chilean tastes, and couldn't compete. It wasn't their fashion, as much as it was the layout of their store and the window displays that doomed them. We have two major players here in the department store business who are doing astronomically well (Paris and Fallabella, in case you wish to google them). The stores tend to be cluttered, disorganized and poorly managed, but it works just fine for the majority of Chileans.

This was repeated more recently by a large American corporation named Home Depot. They are a warehouse full of anything and everything you could want, more or less, to fix/maintain your home. They lasted for a couple of years and ended up selling out to another Chilean company named Easy. They sell the same basic stuff, only Easy is run by Chileans and stocks cheap crappy fixtures etc, where home depot did not. You will often walk into easy and find overhead lights burnt out and the air conditioning throughout entire parts or the warehouse not working. These are things that don't bother Chileans, but are usually considered unacceptable to American businesses.

These two examples have been posted in hopes that you might be able to understand that what works for one culture does not always work for another. It's very simple to draw conclusions based upon your own results, and many people have been guilty of doing so in the past, myself included. I'm not so sure that re-introduction of guns into England would be such a good idea, and therefore I'm not running around the forum spouting off about the best way for you to go about fixing your problem of having your firearms taken away from you.

Remember, the US is not a small island. Our problems are very different from yours. One more example and I'll quit...

My Ex girlfriend lived on a 650 cattle ranch outside of Boise, Idaho, and you simply don't find people lurking around a place like that. Why, you might ask? One night some boys came over to see her daughter. They parked down the road and snuck in through the pasture. Unfortunately for them, the cows noticed their presence, and like any good famrer, her brother noticed the cows were acting up. He met the boys at her daughters window with his pistol. They nearly shit their pants, literally.

Now, if he were to call the police, there's only one officer on duty in the town they live closest to, it may have taken them an hour or longer to get there. Do you see how the sheer size of a country can change the way it must govern itself. Don't get me wrong, I own a pistol, and I have NEVER had to draw it on anyone, but living out there on the farm it WAS the law. People in those parts of the country tend not to have real problems with crime, and I guarantee you, because I grew up there, everyone knows why you don't head out to the country and cause problems. The citizens tend to do a pretty good job of policing their own communities out there, because they pretty much have to.

Now, go ahead, pull your map out, cut out the UK, and lay it somewhere over the US. You see the size of our country? You know you can drive for hours at a time at over 100 miles per hour (I know this because I've done it), without coming to a town with law enforcement?

Think it over... The circumstances in our two countries are very different. Really think it over, and come back with a reasonable answer as to how we can do better with what we've got. (By the way, I do agree with reasonable gun laws, like psych patients not being able to legally own guns, derrr.)

I know it's a long and rambling post, but I hope you will be able to recognize that the set of circumstances in our two countries is VERY different. Just like it is for me here in Chile. I have had to adjust my own school and self taught business principles in order to succeed in this society.

/rant

[Colonel Sanders]

Somehow in that rambling post with all the examples, namely the farm, you failed to explain how guns = law and security as opposed to anything else.

The only reason you would need a gun on a farm is either for the sound, or to actually hope you would be able to shoot a predator...which unless you were extremely lucky you would never be able to shoot a wolf on the move from 100+ yards away, any closer and they spot/smell/hear you.

And as for people you said so yerself, out in the middle of nowhere. Criminal activity virtually trickles down to the point you will never have to actively worry about being shot up or robbed. And as for law enforcement the situation remains the same no matter where you are, there is still travel time, there is still the rules of engagement..so it doesn't matter if yer 5 miles away or 50 from em, if someone decides to go postal with a firearm that's it. So by that logic every single person should have a gun, it is an endless loop of debating where no one wins; it crosses from being about gun laws and what is right to personal opinion of what method works better, something no amount of debating can solve.... why this has gone on for 14 pages is beyond me.

[Beli]

The only reason you would need a gun on a farm is either for the sound, or to actually hope you would be able to shoot a predator...which unless you were extremely lucky you would never be able to shoot a wolf on the move from 100+ yards away, any closer and they spot/smell/hear you.


wow! not only are you an expert on gun control, gang violence... now farming too. :hehe:
guns are used on farms for:
shotgun blast to scare away crows from crops
put old/sick/injured animals out of their misery
poachers (animal or i guess human too)

my dad shoots dogs that come on his property. possums, mountian lions, and anything that threatens his livestock. not sure if it is written law or just country law, but if it sticks it's nose on your property, you can kill it. animals i mean. he has had sheep, chickens, rabbits, and quail all killed by dogs. so one night he and my brother sat up with night vision goggles and guns and killed the pack of wild dogs that were doing it.
lucky i wasn't home.. i would have cried about the dogs.

both my dad and my brother keep their guns in a locked gun safe that is bolted to the floor. bomb, fire, and flood proof. also no criminals getting a hold of them either.

[Nazkyn]

At the end of the day, I have never heard of a kid being shot by a cop for pulling a mobile phone or hairbrush out of their pockets anywhere else in the world, except for the good ol' US. Americans can pull whatever figures they want up but I feel good about not living in a country where the police have to approach me like I have a gun tucked away in my pocket. If we fall for the media, you guys fall for stupid figures.

[Chronic]

Guns will never be banned here in the U.S. People like to hunt and collect as well. Unfortunately, the criminals also like to hunt...people, their posessions, deal/buy drugs and every other illegal activity one could imagine. And we seem to let everyone and their uncle into this country. All you have to do is crash land a boat on our shores and the govt says we have to give them 90 days to get their green card. By that time those people get lost in the system and go on to live their lives here.

Yeah, we stick our noses into others business, but most of the time we are asked too, or if we dont, we are terrible and how can we let this crisis continue. Just like how osama was responsible for 911 and because we supposedly have no clue where he is, Saddam was next and we invaded. Boy we sure did uncover some big time nuclear weapons. Am i saying the guy wasnt evil and needed to be dealt with? No....he was evil but that state is in a crisis like none other and our economy is swiriling around the toilet because we just wanna stay until we restore peace....thats not gunna happen anytime soon. The U.S. gets a bad rap if we dont say anything or if we do, so know point in arguing that. I just want to know how Osama seems to be untouchable, just cant find him anywhere.......just seems strange to me, althought the Bush family and his family are in cohoots with oil and such...could be a coincidence.....anyways that rant went off topic..... No ban ever and if so, us law abiding citizens will give them up but that just gives the criminals more attitude and balls to rob, plunder, rape and steal because them bastards will not give up their guns. Most are stolen anyways.

We have screwed ourselves....something tells me the electric baton and the three sea shells will never work in the U.S. in my lifetime....without guns

[HolenDahed]

i know i should have read all the posts in this thread but all i know is how is it my right to bear arms can be denied if the issue is civil safety. i cant speak for anyone except myself in this case but where i was raised (and spend a majority of my time) the police are known to come at least an hour after any kind of crime short or jaywalking or littering. and being from "the hood" how do you expect me to feel like i can depend on the police or EMS for that matter when they have been reputed for their untimely matter. YOU CANT !!
one recent example i can give,

a guy is walking home from the store (maybe 6 to 7 houses away) around dusk dark when two teens attempt to rob him, he in turn fires his weapon twice hitting one teen in the chest fatally wounding him. the teen runs off (im guessing out of panic) only a few feet away where he was found dead nearly an hour later by police.the victim goes in his house calls police makes out a report only to have to go to sleep to gunfire from friends of the teen.this lasted about a week then guess who decides ok we are goin to sit a car on the premises round the clock. so if it were you who had to worry about the safety of your family, running out of ammo (to attempt to fight back with) and where do i move to now that my life altering experience has gotten far past out of control how would you feel about not being able to bear arms.

as i stated before im sure a few good points were made to counter my arguement but if this example were to happen to you do really think it would be no problem if you had no right to bear arms?????

[Mitch]

What if you'd been a little smarter and given them your wallet and not shot the kid? Seems like a much better situation.

[HellRaiser]

What if you'd been a little smarter and given them your wallet and not shot the kid? Seems like a much better situation.

To think you just critiqued him for a lack of intelligent choice and your handle is ( oddily enough defines you well) "Super Dumbass"? :grin:

Typical reasoning and idealism coming from people against guns lol.
Smarter to give up your stuff because someone else says so lol.
Can you give me your address? I need a few things because it sounds like a much better situation don't ya think? :hehe:

[Mitch]

But they've got what they wanted..they'd rather go to jail for theft than murder.

[Colonel Sanders]

Uh yeah 9 out of 10 times they DO NOT want to kill someone, they just want yer wallet.

If they had wanted to kill you they would've shot and taken the wallet from you before they came up and talked to you.ROFL

You are a fucking idiot.

It's called insurance you naive faggot :roll:

[Zeus]

Uh yeah 9 out of 10 times they DO NOT want to kill someone, they just want yer wallet.

If they had wanted to kill you they would've shot and taken the wallet from you before they came up and talked to you.ROFL

You are a fucking idiot.

It's called insurance you naive faggot :roll:

So you are an expert on crack heads that rob ppl now? Were is this fantasy land you live in?

[Tca]

Sorry, but here, you're likely to get your wallet taken AND shot. Best to fight for it.

Didn't think i'd say this in this thread, but he makes abit of a point there lol

[HellRaiser]

But they've got what they wanted..they'd rather go to jail for theft than murder.

What they want is immaterial lol.

An individual CHOOSES to commit crime to support themself, they in the process CHOOSE
to possess a firearm or knife or other related weapon to intimidate or USE in the act to get it,
well, you then have chosen to PAY the CONSEQUENCES of your actions knowing full well you could be shot and killed.
One wants no risk of their life to end, don't rob people.

So in a nutshell...

'Live by the sword, die by sword.


Uh yeah 9 out of 10 times they DO NOT want to kill someone, they just want yer wallet. If they had wanted to kill you they would've shot and taken the wallet from you before they came up and talked to you.ROFL

Well ya KAF it shows you have no clue what a criminal is.
It's quite apparent you don't live in a big city hustle and bustle.
Ya see KAF, people start off using various types of weapons to make people hand over shit,
then as they get more experience and cocky the crimes get bigger.
Now the tune changes to don't leave witnesses to PUT YOU IN JAIL.

So your little scenario don't work because they are going to kill people.
,

[Colonel Sanders]

Well ya got me there I do not live in a big city such as Washington D.C., ST. Louis or some shit so I am sure the tone of criminal activities are quite different there depending.

Around here I just never hear of robing+murder as in mugging on the street robing unless the idiot tries to take a swing instead of just staying calm and giving em yer wallet.

[Juicy Fruit]

Key thing is I still belive we need wepons to protect us from an oppresive government

[Colonel Sanders]

Yes because a couple of hunting rifles, shotguns, occasional semi-fire Kalashnikov is reallllllly gonna do something against a trained army equipped with full body armour, superior weapons, that have grenades and tanks and war jets at their disposal :roll:

[Juicy Fruit]

Yes because a couple of hunting rifles, shotguns, occasional semi-fire Kalashnikov is reallllllly gonna do something against a trained army equipped with full body armour, superior weapons, that have grenades and tanks and war jets at their disposal :roll:

numbers are on the public side plus many of the millitary would defect under those situations

[mudcut]

i think no one person should be able to make the rules for any other persons life. if you dont believe in guns then dont use one, and dont complane about the people who do use them. i mean we dont ban butcher knifes from the kitchen just because someone might decide to grab one and stab you with it. guns are just guns, its people who use them wrong ways.