NAFTA

[Santo]

North American Free Trade Agreement.


So this has become a huge issue for the elctoral times in the US, I find it hilarious that people are complaining that because of NAFTA the US economy is going down the drain. So lets take a good look at what is going on......

Back in 1994 Bill Clinton was the apologist of the NAFTA, why? He saw that the US needed a competitive advantage over the EU, and since Canada and Mexico have been and NAFTA or not will be the main comercial partners of the US, it just made sense to try to avoid any kind of added value to goods made in the zone. Back then China wasn't as big of a player in international economy as it is now.

So, whith this in mind, I wonder, what do you think of NAFTA, does it need to be rewrited? Is it working? Is it unfair for any of the 3 countries involved? How is affecting you personally? Would you just rather have it be thrown away and go back to the tax scheme that was used before?


***Edit****

The canadians on the site can give us their insight too, and we can see this from all three countries point of view.

[Candi]

On a preliminary note, without too much knowledge of the agreement, I think parts of it need to be reworked - as some clauses are a bit outrageous. All in all it's a happy agreement for us (Canada) minus some things, like one clause that allows a company to sue to government if they prevent them from making money

There was a case in which an American company added something to fuel in the Canadian market, the government discovered the additive was highly toxic or something understandably bad and outlawed it's use - the company sued the government for 202 million, settled out of court for 16 million -- all under NAFTA.

Corporations shouldn't have such control over a country and so that needs to be fixed, for example.

[Ricecracker420]

free trade kills smaller economies
fair trade helps the little people

[Santo]

Phoenix, as much as we would like to live in a world of fair trade, we don't. The economic model that prevails is the scaled economies, a country or in this case group of countries must find the best way to get economic advantages.

As it is right now, if in the next 5 years you are not selling something to China, you won't make it.

[Ricecracker420]

damn asians...oh wait i'm one of them...damnit

[Puppy Dogs and Ice Cream]

N ot
A nother
F ucking
T raitorous
A merican

[TJ60]

North American Free Trade Agreement.


So this has become a huge issue for the elctoral times in the US, I find it hilarious that people are complaining that because of NAFTA the US economy is going down the drain. So lets take a good look at what is going on......

Back in 1994 Bill Clinton was the apologist of the NAFTA, why? He saw that the US needed a competitive advantage over the EU, and since Canada and Mexico have been and NAFTA or not will be the main comercial partners of the US, it just made sense to try to avoid any kind of added value to goods made in the zone. Back then China wasn't as big of a player in international economy as it is now.

So, whith this in mind, I wonder, what do you think of NAFTA, does it need to be rewrited? Is it working? Is it unfair for any of the 3 countries involved? How is affecting you personally? Would you just rather have it be thrown away and go back to the tax scheme that was used before?


***Edit****

The canadians on the site can give us their insight too, and we can see this from all three countries point of view.



Are you kidding me? You honestly believe it hasn't affected our economy? Why don't you tell that to the 10,000's of people that have lost their job in my state alone when the company they worked for over 15 years decided it was more cost effective to move to Mexico and pay Mexicans $2 an hour instead of the $12-$20 hr here. Maybe because you live in a crime infested country that has politicians that are more crooked than ours could you see this not affecting the US middle class. What happens when these middle class people lose their jobs? They lose their houses, medical coverage, and johnny's tuition. No 401k to bank on so there is your Social Security strain that we have, because these people can't work in this industry anymore because there is no industry that they have spent their whole lives working in left. McDonalds and Taco Bell can't pay a mortage, car payment, light bill, taxes, or put clothes on their kids back. You saying NAFTA has no say in our economy is like saying the President can actually stop or allow abortion in America.

[HellRaiser]

Are you kidding me? You honestly believe it hasn't affected our economy? Why don't you tell that to the 10,000's of people that have lost their job in my state alone when the company they worked for over 15 years decided it was more cost effective to move to Mexico and pay Mexicans $2 an hour instead of the $12-$20 hr here. Maybe because you live in a crime infested country that has politicians that are more crooked than ours could you see this not affecting the US middle class. What happens when these middle class people lose their jobs? They lose their houses, medical coverage, and johnny's tuition. No 401k to bank on so there is your Social Security strain that we have, because these people can't work in this industry anymore because there is no industry that they have spent their whole lives working in left. McDonalds and Taco Bell can't pay a mortage, car payment, light bill, taxes, or put clothes on their kids back. You saying NAFTA has no say in our economy is like saying the President can actually stop or allow abortion in America.

Dude, like I said in the other post of your rabbling, there is a 2 billion dollar a day trade between the US and Canada.
Not, week, or bi-weekly or month, but DAY, you silly rabbit.
You have absolutely ZERO economic sense and only spout off like the typical ignorant media sound byte sheep.
WHY? because it happened in YOUR town, to YOUR people, so of course it becomes personal to you.

Loss of jobs is always going to happen when your in a market to make money.
What everyone seems to forget is the amount of jobs it also creates and everything that goes with that.
It's just much easier to blame or focus on one area and say ( bad, bad bad) ONLY because it affected THEMSELF.
But if you honestly think muchless believe the US would be better off without NAFTA,
you might want to go back to school and learn a few things about it lol.
You will come very quickly to realize this isn't the turn of the 19'th century anymore, the US would be in complete TURMOIL.

So to answer Santo question now...

Every system is flawed and not perfect, so yes NAFTA needs restructuring on some parts to benefit all sides more.
But to do away with it all together, North AMerica becomes a blip on the radar screen.

[TJ60]

I'm right your wrong so stfu!
Your usual post!
Read my post in the other thread. Apply your own reason of thought, you benefit from it so your going to be partial to it. 2 billion a day that goes into the pockets of the companies that left everyone unemployed. If it wasn't a big deal why would politicians even take the time to mention it? Instead of saying they would fix the problem why don't they say LOOK WHAT ITS DONE FOR AMERICA! because it hasn't done anything for the typical american.


edit- what i'm trying to say is: Yes it has helped Corporate America, but i'm asking you to show me where it created jobs in america? Show me where the industrial jobs went up in america because of nafty. Because i'm looking at the issue as an american while I can buy a t-shirt for 50cent cheaper but having a community unemployed and unable to pay the bills just isn't worth it.

[HellRaiser]

Your usual post!

No, it's not about I'm right and everyone else is wrong (as usual).
It's about knowing how an economy works and how social politics works and plays it's part, you don't.
If you had any true knowledge or clue how any of this worked you wouldn't be speaking so ignorantly.

Read my post in the other thread. Apply your own reason of thought, you benefit from it so your going to be partial to it.

You should read my other post there because it sums it all up in a nice little package.
We are benefiting from global trade not NAFTA as one entity, you're losing because of COSTLY WARS and blaming NAFTA, period.

2 billion a day that goes into the pockets of the companies that left everyone unemployed.

You're slow lol, the money isn't a few corperations profiting, it is buy and sell market of products by CONSUMERS.
It always gets recycled back into society as consumer consumption.
How in the hell you think an econmoy works, legos? :O

If it wasn't a big deal why would politicians even take the time to mention it?

Well it's quite obvious your a complete NOOB, if you haven't figured out YET how politics work
and what politicians will say or do to get votes and elected, I surely can't help you see.
You're always going to have 2 sides but it's empty POSTEURING.

Because i'm looking at the issue as an american while I can buy a t-shirt for 50cent cheaper but having a community unemployed and unable to pay the bills just isn't worth it.

Blame Mexico for that one, they make the clothes for dirt cheap lol...
If any community is unemployed it's because that COMMUNITY RELIED ON ( in most cases) ONE type of industry to fuel a town.
Who's problem or fault is that except that social economical town?
For example: You think you're the only one who has shut down car plants that crippled an town?

[TJ60]

so your post is more insults about how I don't know anything but yet you offer no proof of your statements.


/end debate

throwing insults and offering no proof, proves no point.

[HellRaiser]

Isn't that ironic coming from you, lmao.
Might want to check your content and presentation, eg: "Motherfuckers" etc....
You are the one flying off the handle in your posts, I am just straightening out the bullshit.

Reality is, you're ending the debate because you have no clue what you're talking about.
YOU KNOW NOTHING about how trade works muchless NAFTA.
You have no idea how an economic society functions or works in regards to this.

Maybe if you ( and other ignorant lobbyists) took your head out of your ass and stopped blaming everyone else
for America's Government and corperations supporting and supplying TRILLION(S) DOLLAR WARS,
America would be in better shape and stop looking for the "Fall Guy" NAFTA. lol.

[steff]

free trade kills smaller economies
fair trade helps the little people

So? Let the small economies open a free trade organisation between them then.

Without NAFTA, the USA will lose their already deteriorating status faster. The EU will overtake them and most certainly East Asia will too (with half the worlds population and industrialising fast afterall). If America want to stay as an economic powerhouse they should be trying their damnedest to make surrounding countries more economically sound and create a market to trade freely long-term.

That's my take on it anyway.

[HellRaiser]

Finally someone with knowledge on how an economy works and survives in a global market.

The end point remains and I keep saying it but is NEGLECTED by most Americans.
It's not NAFTA or any trade market, you're major financial social economic problems is...

THE MASSIVE NEVER ENDING TRILLION DOLLAR WARS.

[drpacifist]

Are you kidding me? You honestly believe it hasn't affected our economy? Why don't you tell that to the 10,000's of people that have lost their job in my state alone when the company they worked for over 15 years decided it was more cost effective to move to Mexico and pay Mexicans $2 an hour instead of the $12-$20 hr here. Maybe because you live in a crime infested country that has politicians that are more crooked than ours could you see this not affecting the US middle class. What happens when these middle class people lose their jobs? They lose their houses, medical coverage, and johnny's tuition. No 401k to bank on so there is your Social Security strain that we have, because these people can't work in this industry anymore because there is no industry that they have spent their whole lives working in left. McDonalds and Taco Bell can't pay a mortage, car payment, light bill, taxes, or put clothes on their kids back. You saying NAFTA has no say in our economy is like saying the President can actually stop or allow abortion in America.

Damnit, you beat me too it. I knew I shouldn't have read the replies before posting. RON PAUL FOR PRESIDENT!

[drpacifist]

I really don't want to get into this but...


Its not only the middle class that loses their jobs. Thousands of mexican farmers are out of the job thanks to nafta. Large industrial farming has taken over in mexico. The poor farmer whose family lived for generations by farming and selling their crops to middle men, who ripped them off, lost their only way to make a living. Eventually they lost their land and homes. So now, they high tail it to the US to work the jobs "no american wants".

These people are in turn ENSLAVED. Tell me I'm wrong and I'll laugh at you. They willingly turn over ANY form of ID or property to get a days work. If you think the people who employ these migrant works are good hearted, you are wrong. I'd say half of these people never get their identification back, and are forced to work for EVEN LOWER WAGES. This is very common here. Many women are lured here and enslaved in 'massage parlors' and other sweat shops. The men work some of the hardest jobs for barely enough money to survive. To make it through such poverty, they live packed into one bedroom apartments somtimes 3 families, somtimes 10 men. Crime in these areas are rampant.

Nafta worked for them.

Nafta does hurt the middle class. Theres no other way around it but nafta isn't the only cause. When a company can close down shop here in the states and open up shop in CHINA or MEXICO and pay their workers less, why not? I guess thats a great thing! Especially if you're a capitalist pig whose never actually worked a day in your life, or you've watched too much television and still believe the ever evolving reasons for the war in IRAQ.

I especially like how we outsource our tech jobs to india, who turns around and outsources it back to us.

Lets put aside NAFTA and bring up our good ol' pals haliburton. Those fuckers charge $99 [us] to do a single load of laundry in IRAQ. They charged our government $400,000 for a Ford Explorer [they rented]. Wtf. They robbed our country, then bailed out and moved their headquarters to the United Arab Emirates. Billion and Billions of dollars gone. With these billions they bought legislation to protect them from prosecution.

"We are benefiting from global trade not NAFTA as one entity, you're losing because of COSTLY WARS and blaming NAFTA, period."

The Americans do not want the war. Our soldiers do not want this war. This war was designed to weaken us and force us to accept the coming North American Union, which will be merged with the European Union. New World Order.

NAFTA is a part of our downfall. The war in Iraq will be our downfall. The corrupt politicians in washington will be our downfall. THE GREEDY CORPORATE ELITE WILL BE OUR DOWNFALL, and yours, no matter where you live in the world. You will be enslaved. And worse of all, you will be fooled into thinking its your decision.

Theres a bible quote I could throw in there...

[drpacifist]

"Blame Mexico for that one, they make the clothes for dirt cheap, lol..."


I don't know where you live or care. But when your neighboring country, whatever that may be, goes down the drain, GUESS WHAT!? Your jobs will leave your country too. Any manufacturing jobs will vanish. It'll be cheaper for your third or second world neighbor to make these goods.

Don't worry though. There will be plenty of jobs for you guys in the service industry. You can wait on tables, wash cars, and stock shelves for the people who profited by taking away the jobs.

At least until the poor from the neighboring country come and take those jobs.

[Santo]

Guess what? Mexico is a country whose major ecnomic income is oil and then service oriented industry, the jobs lost in the US are not coming to Mexico, blame China.

[Jacx]

bring on the one world govenment and the 10 kings....


oh man now im going biblical :S

[HellRaiser]

The Illuminati is alive and well. :grin:

[drpacifist]

Guess what? Mexico is a country whose major ecnomic income is oil and then service oriented industry, the jobs lost in the US are not coming to Mexico, blame China.


read. I didnt say the jobs lost in the us were GOING anywhere.

[Santo]

When a company can close down shop here in the states and open up shop in CHINA or MEXICO and pay their workers less, why not?

read. I didnt say the jobs lost in the us were GOING anywhere.

So?

[drpacifist]

So?

Ah, I see. Thanks for pointing that out. I was just making a point about companies ditching and running for cheaper workers. I'm not blaming Mexico for the United States problems, I'm blaming the American government.

Personally, I think Americans should demand better quality products, not some Chinese shit with lead paint. I believe we shouldn't be in Iraq [or Iran for that matter]. Instead we should have helped Mexico come out of the gutter and if we're going to force regime change, it might as well have been the corrupt Mexican govt. But the current establishment here in the states like the system in Mexico. It allows them to hire cheap labor and continuous drug traffic which brings on even MORE money for their buddies [jails, money for war on drugs, border patrol, etc etc]

If I'm to blame anyone, its the greedy elite. I'd rather have happy Mexicans than happy Iraqis. The Mexicans have been the brothers of Texas since before we joined the United States.