Rape and coverup...

[JaiJai]

Here's the article up for discussion:

Afghan children raped with 'impunity,' U.N. official says - CNN.com (http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/asiapcf/08/07/afghan.family/index.html)


This quote from the article is very disturbing to say the least:

"Another factor that impedes victims from coming forward is Islamic Sharia law. In order for a rape to be validated, victims must have four male witnesses to the crime -- if not, the victims can be charged with fornication or adultery."


So a 12 year old lil' girl gets raped by 5 Men with guns and unless there's an audience of 4 Males, of course, willing to testify...Then the girl is charged with a crime punishable by death?!!!?!

Wtf is wrong with these people? So let me get this straight..it's a country ran by Men...where women and children are classed as 2nd rate, and these Men who run the country, not only fail to protect their women and children but also are part of the perpetration of the crimes against them... Mmmm K.

another quote: ""I can't think of any country in the world in which children suffer more than in Afghanistan"

So does their religion not value children as sacred gifts from God, as most religions do?

I admit, I don't know much about the their religion, but from what I've just read, I have no respect for it

[coalition]

Whole nother different animal in them foreign countries.

From you're link: In a country riddled with corruption, despair and lawlessness, the family has risked their lives by coming forward

That about sums it all up.

[Quaker]

Here's the article up for discussion:

Afghan children raped with 'impunity,' U.N. official says - CNN.com (http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/asiapcf/08/07/afghan.family/index.html)

This quote from the article is very disturbing to say the least:

"Another factor that impedes victims from coming forward is Islamic Sharia law. In order for a rape to be validated, victims must have four male witnesses to the crime -- if not, the victims can be charged with fornication or adultery."

Funny, this just may be me, but usually when i quote an article I actually quote it and don't go around dropping words and changing sentences.

What the article actually says:

Another factor that impedes victims from coming forward is some interpretations of Sharia, or Islamic law. Some authorities rule for a rape to be validated, victims must have four witnesses to the crime. If not, the victims can be charged with fornication or adultery.

Furthermore, the claim that four witnesses are needed to prove rape is a false claim. The four witnesses rule, under Islamic law, should only be used in the case of adultery, not rape.



A chapter which We have sent down and imposed, and We have sent down in it clear revelations that you may remember.

The adulteress and the adulterer, you shall lash each of them one hundred lashes, and do not let any pity take you over God's system if you believe in God and the Last Day. And let a group of the believers witness their punishment.

The adulterer will only marry an adulteress or one who is an idolatress. And the adulteress, she will only be married to an adulterer or an idolater. And this has been forbidden for the believers.

And those who accuse the independent women and they do not bring forth four witnesses, then you shall lash them eighty lashes and do not ever accept their testimony. Those indeed are the evildoers.

Your constant overgeneralizing the actions of a few to reflect the views of everyone in a country and / or region is disturbing. Don't the actions of the father show you that everyday, religious people do not ascribe to the views you are accusing them of being all about?

And let us please focus on a few other quotes from the same article:

In a country riddled with corruption, despair and lawlessness, the family has risked their lives by coming forward.

"Rapists are roaming around with impunity," Shaima says, turning her attention to a man -- said to be the son of a powerful official -- who is accused of raping 22 girls in the northern province of Sar-I-Pul.

"These criminals are never brought to justice, because police and government authorities are either involved or they can't handle the crimes," she explains. "With criminals and warlords in the political scene, we cannot expect justice to be served."

Show me a country with extreme poverty, lawlessness and lots of corruption and i'll show case after case of justice NOT being served as this story is not something that is exclusive to Islamic countries.

Rwanda anyone?

So does their religion not value children as sacred gifts from God, as most religions do? How can you say that with a straight face? Did you NOT read the article?

Did you not read what her mother and father were saying?

Did you not get the sense that they DO care about their kids, as "gifts from god'? I know I certainly got the impression that they care VERY much about their kids and want to do everything they can to protect their kids.

Here, let me refresh your memory:

The girl's elderly and immobilized father trembles and can only raise a quivering hand as he sobs. He is rendered helpless in a country where a man's dignity and honor is protecting his family.

And how about another one?

The children's mother sobs. "We've been violated. We can't live our lives. We can't sit. We can't sleep at night," she says.

Again, can you say with a straight face that this family, as Muslims, don't care about their kids? It is sad that you don't realize that by trying to wrongly attack and blame Islam for this rape you are just further victimizing this girl and her family as they are Muslims, i.e. the very same people you are demonizing.

another quote: "I can't think of any country in the world in which children suffer more than in Afghanistan"

. . . unless of course it is a country that has also gone through war after war for the past 30 years, and been almost literally raped by many other nations, including the United States.

"War has completely destroyed that administrative infrastructure," Coomaraswamy says, "even if they had the laws, it is impossible to implement."

[Colonel Sanders]

You don't need just this example to know Muslims have screwed ideals about the whole family infrastructure.

I mean they are obligated by their religion to kill their children if they "tarnish" the family name...their own children. So yeah I don't really care about the minor things that may be bent to make it seems muslims are bad...because guess what, choose a couple hundred other topics and they'll still be bad.

[Uganja]

Gross generalisations, from you KAF? surely not. :roll:

Thank you Quaker for a closer insight into a religion that i must confess, i find difficult to understand at times. I'm an atheist, so admittedly I am of that persuasion for all religions, but trying not to empathise with any is just ignorance.

22% of the world can't be that wrong.

Oh. and Afghanistan has had a pretty tough history, corruption is rife, that's the problem, not the scape goat Islam that the media will have you believe.

[Asshole]

Its not a coverup untill its officially rape ;)

[the squid of despair]

So does their religion not value children as sacred gifts from God, as most religions do?




You mean like the Catholic Churches? They certainly see children as sacred. This is happeneing in our own backyard, everyday. It's not exclusive to muslims or arabs. The thing that sets it apart, as you stated, is the interpritation of "Sharia Law".

[Colonel Sanders]

I make no generalizations. Thats how they are.

The ones that aren't are the ones that do not live by the true Muslim code that you are supposed to. EVERY Muslim is obligated by their faith to kill infidels and all of their grandiose age old bullshit yet only a small fraction do..the ones we call "terrorists". The reason it is not the majority is because thankfully in the modern age most muslims and their families don't even believe all that is in their Koran or want to adhere to it....much like Christians who do not truly live or a teach a Christian life style.

[hoos]

Dammit Quaker, I don't have the attention span to read your whole post...


Anyways, this is one reason why I don't pay attention to most of the rest of the world. One, I'm probably not going to agree with it, and two, I'm not going to do anything about it, nor have the power to do anything about it. I feel this is an injustice, but it's not going to ruffle my feathers much.

[JaiJai]

Quaker, can't you discuss something without being condescending towards people?


Anways...Obviously the writer of the article edited it afterwards, Because I copied and pasted the paragraph in it's entirety. I don't paste quotes from articles then change the words, I don't do things that way.

THIS is exactly what it said when I read it:
"Another factor that impedes victims from coming forward is Islamic Sharia law. In order for a rape to be validated, victims must have four male witnesses to the crime -- if not, the victims can be charged with fornication or adultery."


Therefore... in that context, then a person like me, who knows nothing about their religion except for what I read in articles such as this... would find it disturbing. This article didn't say "Some interpretations", nor did it say "SOME Authorities rule".... When I read the article it said it as if it were cut in stone, that's how the religion is, Period! Thus I thought it to be bullshit, if that's how a religion deals with it's children.

Also... the four witness rule didn't originally say " must have four witnesses to the crime" it said: " must have four male witnesses to the crime" it said it had to be MALE witnesses.

The part that got me, was that it was portrayed in this article that the religion, itself, wouldn't help this girl unless she had four male witnesses, which of course isn't gonna happen.

And the article says RAPE....not simply adultery as you put it! Maybe the quote you found in the Quran 24:001 through 24:004 says adultery, but the CNN article I listed says Rape. And we know there's rarely witnesses to rape, and if there are, they are usually participating or condoning it, not testifying against the perpetrators. So that's an illogical law, if it truly exists in their religion.

If I didn't have sympathy for the victim and her family (Yes Mulsim people!)...then I wouldn't have even posted this thread. My problem is with the religious leaders who allegedly instill these laws, If that's the case.

anways, obviously someone complained and they changed the wording by the time YOU read it.



And squid, I totally agree with you about this... about the children who have been victimized by catholic priests. My thoughts regarding this story don't dismiss my thoughts about other churches and their wrongs, not in the least. We can discuss that too if you like...however this thread was the result of a current event that I happen to be reading about on CNN at that moment, and thus I made a thread about it because I was outraged at the laws of their religion regarding rape of a young girl, and their laws that fail to protect her.

Of course, that was based on the orignal statements made, before someone changed it's context in the news article. (which by the way, I just emailed Atia Abawi at CNN to ask them why they changed it)

You got it wrong Quaker... I know this girl's family hold her sacred, it wasn't even about them...it was about their belief system and it's laws that wronged them. You're twisting the meaning of my words. :nono:

[Q80Thug]

im confused!

from my simple understanding of my religion adultery law is the following:

'adultery is forbidden, adultery sentence cannot be charged unless they were four witnesses to the act.'

logically speaking, adultery charges should be rarely sentenced because of the number of witnesses. but since we are talking about ill-logical male dominated culture based societies then laws (in the case of saudia arabia & afghanistan is the sharia law) are abused, stretched and/or even discarded.

[Quaker]

You got it wrong Quaker... I know this girl's family hold her sacred, it wasn't even about them...it was about their belief system and it's laws that wronged them. You're twisting the meaning of my words. :nono:

I just found it, and still find it, ironic that you blame the belief system when in fact the same victims in this story are a part of that same belief system.

What you should be blaming is NOT the belief system, but those corrupt individuals who abuse an otherwise normal belief system.

So does their religion not value children as sacred gifts from God, as most religions do?

My point still stands, if you say Islam is flawed, i.e. the belief system, then by the same virtue you are saying all Muslims are flawed.

However, were you to start ranting and raving about the corrupt individuals who are abusing a belief system and/or the law then I probably wouldn't of even posted.

[Colonel Sanders]

The fuck are yall arguing about the muslim belief system and how it may or may not be flawed.

Of course its flawed its a fucking religion, islam just happens to be more flawed than most.

[Q80Thug]

y are yall arguing about the muslim belief system and how it may or may not be flawed ?

Of course its flawed its a religion, islam just happens to be more flawed than most.

you see? your opinion, as "flawed" as it may be, is still clear without the need to say the F**** and SH*** so keep it that way or stay out of the discussion.


talking about islam in particular or any religion in general is out of topic here. because as quaker pointed out which i also agree with is that the issue here is about corrupt individuals and not of religion. because there is not a single religion that advocates rape or killing or stealing or lying etc. etc.

[Colonel Sanders]

Oh gee sorry I forgot that using certain elements of the English language offends so many on this forum /sigh

And your argument is flawed as well. You say it's about corrupt people and not religion. Do you know how dumb that sounds? Their religion is what made their way of thinking and general beliefs corrupt in the first place so it's just as much about the corruption of humanity as it is religion my friend as they go hand in hand. And to say not a single religion advocates what you listed further shows your ignorance of the topic. Go spend a couple weeks reading the Koran and Bible sometime buddy.

[Q80Thug]

You say it's about corrupt people and not religion. Do you know how dumb that sounds?
no
Their religion is what made their way of thinking and general beliefs corrupt in the first place so it's just as much about the corruption of humanity as it is religion my friend as they go hand in hand.
by this logic of yours you say that secular states or atheists are untouchable in thought of mind and intentions. funny that you mention dumbness.....
And to say not a single religion advocates what you listed further shows your ignorance of the topic. Go spend a couple weeks reading the Koran and Bible sometime buddy
im not sure about the bible but i know abit of the koran, infact i bet that little bit that i know is more than what you know. go find a translated koran in the web and please show me where it says to kill or murder without just or reason or if there is reason to rape someone, buddy.
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let me state my opinion clearly: some of the laws of religion, in this case that would be the some of the sharia laws of islam are in my belief outdated, and therefore should not be implemented. for example the koran mainly consists of stories of previous prophets, stories about the prophets and his struggle against the idolaters and some laws of state that were valid 1400 years ago. and cannot refer to it in modern life. and only that but the it is so vague that its very open to interpretation. yet to blame islam, or that of any religion for the actions of its followers is just plain ridiculous.

[JaiJai]

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Still no response from them as to why they changed the wording fyi.

[DragonLady]

Most of the issues you are talking about are not part of the religion but these laws have been put into place by men. Again a prime example how MEN have to dominate the world in order to feel accomplished. So sad.

[Thikpis]

Penis envy. So amusing.

[Az]

This is indeed sad, but I have a new found respect for Quaker. My only debate in this is all the bitches stepping out to try to say its men its men its men, Go ahead and generalize what you want, but it's more ignorant than the laws and doctrines put in place by the people in your original post.

[JaiJai]

So azura, you're saying that women do have a part in creating the laws there?

If so, then why does it say "four males" must witness the rape for it to be valid? why not just four people, rather than specifying it be men who witness it? hardly sounds like something a lady would write... sounds kinda chauvenistic to me.

hmm maybe you know something us bitches don't *shrug* .. please feel free to enlighten us

[Nite Owl]

First of all Jai Jai you are completely right. That does not sound like something a woman would ever say about rape, and of course why not say that it takes "4 people" to claim that it happened instead of it being only "4 men". Rape is rape no matter if it is just 1 person or many.

As for you Azura, you have no idea what you are even talking about. 9 times out of 10 it is MEN that are the ones doing the RAPING, so yes us as women are going to say IT IS MEN. Us WOMEN are not BITCHES for doing this and speaking out to the world about how it is most of the time MEN doing this to their own women. People don't understand what it is like to be raped unless it has happened to you. You may ask "What do you mean by that?" This is what I mean by that: I have been there and have been raped myself and YES it was a MAN that did it. I am not against men by no means I am actually getting married to a great guy.

One last thing, it is men who make up most of the laws. Have we ever had a WOMAN president....NO we have not. I think that things would be different if there were. Laws would be made different and they would protect ALL RAPE VICTIMS.

[Az]

About 3% of American men — or 1 in 33 — have experienced an attempted or completed rape in their lifetime.

http://www.rainn.org/get-information/statistics/sexual-assault-victims

Your arguement is flawed. The end. Niteowl.

[Nite Owl]

No my argument isnt flawed it is a life experience for me and I never said that ALL MEN RAPE what I said was that it is mainly MEN that you hear of that are put away for DOING IT.

[Az]

First of all Jai Jai you are completely right. That does not sound like something a woman would ever say about rape, and of course why not say that it takes "4 people" to claim that it happened instead of it being only "4 men". Rape is rape no matter if it is just 1 person or many.

As for you Azura, you have no idea what you are even talking about. 9 times out of 10 it is MEN that are the ones doing the RAPING, so yes us as women are going to say IT IS MEN. Us WOMEN are not BITCHES for doing this and speaking out to the world about how it is most of the time MEN doing this to their own women. People don't understand what it is like to be raped unless it has happened to you. You may ask "What do you mean by that?" This is what I mean by that: I have been there and have been raped myself and YES it was a MAN that did it. I am not against men by no means I am actually getting married to a great guy.

One last thing, it is men who make up most of the laws. Have we ever had a WOMAN president....NO we have not. I think that things would be different if there were. Laws would be made different and they would protect ALL RAPE VICTIMS.

Bolded the part where you conflict in your previous statement. Your later statement about laws does not excuse the earlier where you presented your idiocy.

[Q80Thug]

If so, then why does it say "four males" must witness the rape for it to be valid?

i looked it up jaijai and it says four 'witnesses', i.e 4 male and/or female witnesses.

[JaiJai]

i looked it up jaijai and it says four 'witnesses', i.e 4 male and/or female witnesses.

Oh yea.. I forgot, that was the original CNN story that said four "male" witnesses.

[Sir Brian]

22% of the world can't be that wrong.


lol.. that is a very naiive statement.

Go back to the times of Christian Crusades across Europe and into Asia,,, well the Saudi's and certain North African factions are continuing in much the same way,,, but with regards to Islam.

How many of that 22% have a choice about their religion??

plus they breed like rabbits...

[Uganja]

i'm an atheist, my belief is that all religion is a form of naivety. Still, there's no harm in trying to understand the rule system behind it. Hence the context in which that quote was used.


i sleep with men

see, i can misquote too: 1337 5ki11z

[Sir Brian]

see, i can misquote too: 1337 5ki11z

thats clever of you. (Y).
its a shame this wasnt a misquote.

22% of the world can't be that wrong.

[stokes91]

I don't like the islamic religion. but we all have a choice to follow whatever religion we want.

the thing that makes ME mad is the innocents that are harmed. such as little children. and the fact that people are killed for changing their beliefs

[Sir Brian]

the thing that makes ME mad is the innocents that are harmed. such as little children. and the fact that people are killed for changing their beliefs

little children are the product of the devil.