Serious Discussion: Game C Changes

[Kloaked Spirit]

Ok, it's been a long time since C games have been around. It seems that we will have the ability to start this game from scratch (variable wise.) So let's get this off on a serious note. We'll start this by setting realistic expectations.

I know there will be bugs within the C games themselves. While I will appreciate any and all bugs mentioned, I cannot give an ETA of when they'll be fixed. I know we will be having a new coder working on these games, but that doesn't mean things will happen immediately.

For a decent while, don't expect any of the C games to really be medal games where you can win donation codes. For the first bit, expect there to be a lot of changes, a lot of resets, and a lot of just "let's see how this works out." I will be using an accelerated token count so we can simulate full games within a short period. Also as a result of this, understand that resets will be pretty much on my time-table until we get the games at least medal worthy.

Any and all honest feedback will be appreciated. You guys will have a strong influence on setting it up. The more civil the discussion, and the more reasoning behind your statements, the better off everyone will be. I know that not everyone will be pleased by everything. But I expect that within this area, the comments will be respectful. If you need to bitch and complain, go to AIW.

On that note, for those that did play in the C games, take this thread as the place to discuss what you liked and what you didn't like. I figure since we have a little bit until we can get started, it'd be nice to try to get some sort of focus on how the people want the game to shape up, and possibly work from that intent. For those that never played the game, go ahead and make comments anyway on what you'd probably want to see within this game. Ask questions about it, and I'm sure someone will answer you so you can get a good idea about what to expect from these games.

For the statements, I'll even go first.

-------------------------

I understand that the intention of the C games was to create a gunner-oriented game. As a result, the emphasis was placed on having the most guns to get the highest net worth. While I think it's great to have a more gun-oriented game, I think having guns worth more than vests killed the game in the long run.

With the game being so gun-oriented, defense was impossible. As a result, there was no realistic reason to run junkies. This in turn killed off a good deal of worth gunning, and you were left with machinists and credit sellers.

I'd like to try to adjust this in a mixture of two ways. The first one that has the most immediate impact for little adjustment would be to change the worths of guns/vests. Secondly, we may need to do some adjusting to either gun vs vest weighting, cartel gunning bonus strength, and/or increased payouts for junks for taking the additional risk. We really need to get the junkie game to be viable, or we're back to just the two main ways of winning.

Ok, now your turn.

[siggins]

Jacx can you maybe post the email I sent to you a long time ago about what i thought needed to be done to c games. I know I spent alot of time on that awhile ago and that would be a good basis to start at i think.

I had adjusted the bennies from carts and their defence and attack bonuses to make running junkies, more of a viable strat.

I think we need to keep guns worth more then vests although you have some good points in there. The point of c games as you said was to intice more worth gunners. As long as you can have a type of cartel running junks that is able to protect themselves I think it would be ok to have guns worth more still.

maybe make theft go down even lower so junkies can get an even bigger jump if they are succesfull. Like allow theft to 75% More to come later.....

:thumbs:

[Jacx]

it was something like this:...however this is part of what u wrote...i need to find the full list.

Drugs:
Drug Benefits:

Each drug in C games has a different benefit, they are as follows.

Crystal Meth: Junkies train twice as fast if they are training while on Crystal Meth.

LSD: LSD is easy to make in labs, your lab can yield 50% more LSD than other drugs.

Cocaine: Junkies love cocaine... when paid with this; they work 35% harder (35% more money from junkies).

Heroin: Junkie value heroin a little more than other drugs, they'll only expect 65% pay if it's in heroin.

Special K: When carrying Special K, every once in a while, you take a little sample. Each unit of Special K in your coat is equal to having drank 2 shakes.

Marijuana: There's not better way to study then with a little Marijuana in your system. For every 500 units in your coat, you can earn an extra 1 credits per turn from the University.

Ecstasy: These pills are so small; you can fit 5 times as many units in your coat compared to other drugs.


Cartel Types (C GAMES ONLY!)



Note the Basic cart size in C is 8 members.


League-max 8 members
Members must give 24 hours notice to leave
Members get a 400% bonus on all goods recieved from other cartel members
The cartel bonus when attacking is 80% weaker
The cartel bonus when defending is 10% weaker
Gang- max 16 members
Cartel can have 8 more members than the maximum size
Members get a 95% reduction on all goods recieved from other cartel members
The cartel bonus when attacking is 15% stronger
The cartel bonus when defending is 5% stronger
Members must give 24 hours notice to leave

Gunner- max 12 members
Cartel can have 4 more members than the maximum size
The cartel bonus when attacking is 60% stronger
The cartel bonus when defending is 50% weaker
Members must give 24 hours notice to leave

Commercialist- max 12 members
Cartel can have 4 more members than the maximum size
Members get a 300% bonus on junkie and lab goods recieved from other cartel members
Members get a 95% reduction on all factory goods recieved from other cartel members
The cartel bonus when attacking is 20% weaker
The cartel bonus when defending is 20% stronger
Members must give 24 hours notice to leave

Industrialist- max 10 members
Cartel can have 2 more members than the maximum size
Members get a 300% bonus on all factory goods recieved from other cartel members
Members get a 95% reduction on junkie and lab goods recieved from other cartel members
The cartel bonus when defending is 25% stronger
Members must give 24 hours notice to leave

Cult
Members must give 24 hours notice to leave
Cartel can have 8 more members than the maximum size

Now as u see this is a large change from the normal games. In v1 there was some issues with the math which i think was resolved but not coded in and obviously never added to v2. However the game with both the different style carts on offer plus the effect of drugs gave a whole new multitude of different strategies that of course excited the players....its not the same old game, it would take a year of playing to learn all the new strats that can be used.

[Kloaked Spirit]

We'd need to cut down on the league's machinist bonus. That or code in a major sabotage penalty for those that get hit by thugs to drastically reduce the rate of payoff. Otherwise Industrial cartels have no purpose.

10000 vests produced by 10 people = 100,000 vests produced * .01 * 3 = 3,000 for the cartel bonus.

10000 vests produced by 8 people = 80,000 vests produced * .01 * 4 = 3,200 for the cartel bonus.

I'm fine with the bonus for junkies as you can see they have a reduced defense and this compensates for it.

Edit: I'd have to see how the current gun formula is for this game, and how the cartel gunning/defense bonuses play into it. We may need to make adjustments to that as well.

We couldn't do theft to 75% unless we were willing to make changes to the resale value at Val-Mart, which is 80% of value. Otherwise you'd just get 75% theft, and buy/sell over and over again for profits until you maxed out your worth at whatever value that'd be.

[Diezel]

Ern i apolgys for crashing your party but can some one explain this to me ,whats this about leagues and stuff ?

[Kloaked Spirit]

Ern i apolgys for crashing your party but can some one explain this to me ,whats this about leagues and stuff ?

It's fine. I know that a lot of newer players out here never got to experience the C games, so they never got to experience the major changes. There were plenty of significant changes between A/B games and C games. Some of them included different bonuses for the drugs you were using to pay junkies, being able to resell guns/vests at Val-Mart, and the fact that there were various cartel types that you could set up in join.

The 6 cartels listed in Jacx's post were the different types of cartels you could create. Each type of cartel had their own benefits and weaknesses. For example, the gunning cartel allowed for a significant gunning bonus and yet be only 8 people in the cartel while gangs could get slightly higher defense, higher offense, and have 16 people in it. So on and so forth.

Leagues were known for having the highest bonus payouts from cartel contributions for everything. In this game, being in a league meant that you got 400% of the normal cartel benefits (which in C games included guns/vests produced by machines.) However they had reduced defense, so they were more vulnerable to gunner attacks. So people did the smart thing and just did all of their gun press/machining in the league cartels so they'd get the highest possible bonuses for them, and then all merge into a gang/cult in the end game.

Edit: I made an edit to this post and the OP to state that if you haven't played the C games and don't know what we're really talking about, go ahead and still ask questions about how the game was or provide input on how you feel it should be.

[Diezel]

It's fine. I know that a lot of newer players out here never got to experience the C games, so they never got to experience the major changes. There were plenty of significant changes between A/B games and C games. Some of them included different bonuses for the drugs you were using to pay junkies, being able to resell guns/vests at Val-Mart, and the fact that there were various cartel types that you could set up in join.

The 6 cartels listed in Jacx's post were the different types of cartels you could create. Each type of cartel had their own benefits and weaknesses. For example, the gunning cartel allowed for a significant gunning bonus and yet be only 8 people in the cartel while gangs could get slightly higher defense, higher offense, and have 16 people in it. So on and so forth.

Leagues were known for having the highest bonus payouts from cartel contributions for everything. In this game, being in a league meant that you got 400% of the normal cartel benefits (which in C games included guns/vests produced by machines.) However they had reduced defense, so they were more vulnerable to gunner attacks. So people did the smart thing and just did all of their gun press/machining in the league cartels so they'd get the highest possible bonuses for them, and then all merge into a gang/cult in the end game.

Edit: I made an edit to this post and the OP to state that if you haven't played the C games and don't know what we're really talking about, go ahead and still ask questions about how the game was or provide input on how you feel it should be.



Ty ...it sounds awesome

[siggins]

Good point about resale of guns and theft we could adjust both to make it work. I remember going through each cartel type and adjusting each one's bennies for the cartel to make the game more fair for all. I think i was increasing the indrustrialist cart's bennies to make it the cart to play junkies in.

Im not sure if what jacx posted was the actual values or my adjusted ones that never got coded in.

I will make a long post later today hopefully about all my ideas. :thumbs:


Edit: For anyone that was not around to play C games and wants to have a break down of stuff Jacx put some earlier but here is my how to play guide.: http://forum.oddthought.com/c-games-archive/5562-c-game-information-guide-how-play.html

We we also wondering if it would be possible for gunners to win sewing machines and gun presses in jumps? This would cause machiners to be at risk as well as junkies,,, you would almost need to worth gun your way to victory every round. Could make things intereesting..... Or instead of winning these in jumps make it a thug task: Go rob players factory and you get some % of what they have each time. again more to come......

[Kloaked Spirit]

Those looked like original values, or very slightly edited ones. I'll wait for the list of updated ones and take a look at them.

As far as coding it to win sewing machines/gun presses, that'll be something we can revisit once we get a coder that can add new features in.

[siggins]

The more i think about the winning sewing machines and gun presses in jumps the less i like it, I think it is a great idea but if we do do it i think it should be a thug task.

Im having alot of family problems right now so it is going to be awhile till I have time to find my old notes......

[Jacx]

I think this is it bud.



Hey rit, jacx, tim and anyone else involved in the coding. This is everything I feel needs to be changed and what would make the game a lot of fun. To start out everything will be worth more so scores are going to be much higher then they used to. I don’t see any problem with that though as long as everyone is higher and it is even.


First off we need to reduce the power of jumping so junkie strats have a chance. Or increase the benefit junkies get, or a combination there of.




Drug Benefits: Each drug in C games has a different benefit. They are as follows.
Crystal Meth: Junkies train twice as fast if they are training while on Crystal Meth.
LSD: LSD is easy to make in labs, your lab can yield 50% more LSD than other drugs.
Cocaine: Junkies love cocaine... when paid with this; they work 35% harder (35% more money from junkies).
Heroin: Junkie value heroin a little more than other drugs, they'll only expect 65% pay if it's in heroin.
Special K: When carrying Special K, every once in a while, you take a little sample. Each unit of Special K in your coat is equal to having drank 2 shakes.
Marijuana: There's not better way to study then with a little Marijuana in your system. For every 500 units in your coat, you can earn an extra 1 credits per turn from the University.
Ecstasy: These pills are so small; you can fit 5 times as many units in your coat compared to other drugs.

Cartel Types: Normall cartel=8 members

League-max 8 members
Members must give 24 hours notice to leave
Members get a 400% bonus on all goods recieved from other cartel members
The cartel bonus when attacking is 80% weaker
The cartel bonus when defending is 10% weaker

Gang- max 16 members
Cartel can have 8 more members than the maximum size
Members get a 95% reduction on all goods recieved from other cartel members
The cartel bonus when attacking is 15% stronger
The cartel bonus when defending is 5% stronger

Members must give 24 hours notice to leave

Gunner- max 12 members
Cartel can have 4 more members than the maximum size
The cartel bonus when attacking is 60% stronger
The cartel bonus when defending is 50% weaker
Members must give 24 hours notice to leave

Commercialist- max 12 members
Cartel can have 4 more members than the maximum size
Members get a 300% bonus on junkie and lab goods recieved from other cartel members
Members get a 95% reduction on all factory goods recieved from other cartel members
The cartel bonus when attacking is 20% weaker
The cartel bonus when defending is 20% stronger
Members must give 24 hours notice to leave

Industrialist- max 10 members
Cartel can have 2 more members than the maximum size
Members get a 300% bonus on all factory goods recieved from other cartel members
Members get a 95% reduction on junkie and lab goods recieved from other cartel members
The cartel bonus when defending is 25% stronger
Members must give 24 hours notice to leave

Cult
Members must give 24 hours notice to leave
Cartel can have 8 more members than the maximum size


Worker Motivation- keep it the same.

As for drug selling I think there needs to be more emphasis put on this. So allow with each token 4 transactions and the max in each sale be equal to whatever the ice cream suit holds. If you get up enough and buy it you should be able to use it for something. Right now it is useless and there is no point in getting it. Since it also costs so much it should have a small effect on your worth so I propose:
Left number how much they hold, right how much they increase your worth. Same Cost. Coats smaller then these wont effect worth:


Trench Coat
192,000
$2,767,823


Redneck Overalls
384,000
$5,364,164


Ninja Robe
786,000
$8,110,990


The Magical Ice Cream Suit
1,536,000
$15,599,566






1 tokens every 8 min with a max of 190 tokens.


Be able to sell shakes for money, buy for $100 and then sell whenever you want for $20.


Be able to sell coats, Will reduce your worth by the same amount as you gained, but you will only receive 20% of the original cost back.
Of course have top 5 cartels by worth and top 5 based on average member worth.




The changes I outlined in the cartel benefits should give junkie players a better chance of getting through the gunners if in a good cartel. These ratios will probably need to be tweaked again to find the perfect ratios. Also require 24 hour notice to leave cartels. This requires cartels to be organized and on top of their shit.


Guns worth: $35
Vests worth: $30
Thugs worth: $26


All are bought for $1000 and can be sold for $800


Ill update as I get ideas from people.

[Carping]

"C" games suck

[Kloaked Spirit]

"C" games suck

And why is that? Any suggestions on making it better? I mean it's great that you have an opinion, and you're able to voice it. However there's more to the thread than just saying you have a dislike for the games.

[Carping]

:offtopic: nope was just voicing my opinion. i cant win "C" games so therefore they suck, im sure many like them they just not my style :offtopic:

sorry to be an ass and post in your thread without valid reasons but they still suck :whistle:

[JMouse]

well i love C games keep up the good work on bringing them back:) sorry carp but u cant be great at everything some ppl want to win too:P

[Diezel]

well i love C games keep up the good work on bringing them back:) sorry carp but u cant be great at everything some ppl want to win too:P


We will dominate Jen ;)

[siggins]

That was it Jacx, Everything that is in bold in that is what I changed... different from what it was. Anyword on when we will have a coder working on this game?

HAHAH carp..... you can have A games but ill take C games anyday....

[T.c.a.]

C games were so awesome, even with their faults, cant wait for them to come back.

I loved the being able to sell guns and vests, will yous be leaving that in C games? That was probably one of my favourite parts about it lol

[Kloaked Spirit]

Status of the new coder is unknown. I know it's in the works.

The selling of guns and vests will remain in there. For right now, you can expect all of the same major features/differences that made C games what it was. The variables around them may change some for balancing issues, which is what we'll be working on until we can get the coder to do more internal work (fixing bugs, new features, etc.)

[HOODLUM]

C games :thumbs:

[siggins]

any idea when we can get a test round going? even if it is everything the old version had with no changes made.

[Jacx]

the different style cartels need coding in...im trying to get a date sorted

[Brick]

Jacx eats babies.:eek:

[siggins]

Hw is this going? Can we expect a practice run at reset of A games?

[Kloaked Spirit]

It still needs the cartel features coded into the panel for us to make any significant changes. Once that gets up, I can then expect to at least start doing trial runs. I can't give any meaningful ETA as I know Jacx has been really busy. You'll know about it as soon as I do, if not sooner should he post here directly.

[herojuana]

i havnt played c games before, but thanks KS and jacx for getting it sorted :) i will take over them once they are running (just kidding)

[siggins]

bump

[flopness]

i never played the old c games but all the twists with the drugs and the diffrent kinds of cartels realy does bring a whole new light on the game. and the fact that you can buy and sell guns is also realy cool and would make for a much better worth gunning strat or mabey evin a good lab strat



also i woas woundering if there would be a black market in this room

[BIGRICK]

I enjoyed C Games and i use to run a great Worth Gunning strat, i could probably still do it too. I'll be happy to help out with testing once its up and runnign and also help a few people new to C games get into the swing of things.

Whatever you all say about the Noob, I look forward to seeing a strat from diezel which will most likely win the room :haha:

(Y)

[aussiebitch]

yes bring back the c games i think we should also have pro b1 and b2

[Kloaked Spirit]

i never played the old c games but all the twists with the drugs and the diffrent kinds of cartels realy does bring a whole new light on the game. and the fact that you can buy and sell guns is also realy cool and would make for a much better worth gunning strat or mabey evin a good lab strat



also i woas woundering if there would be a black market in this room

There's a black market in C games.

Update status: Still nothing to report except more waiting. Sorry guys. :yawn:

[Jacx]

OOOOh i do have a update actually, sorry KS been held up with other stuff and not got back to you on this.

Right now a "something" is being coded and tested by a coder hired by us. Then more "somethings" are going to be done (yes its annoying ain't it), but to do these other "somethings" we will probably need more options which makes the likelihood of C games much much better as I think C games can cover these options.

Basically think of dws as a engine, the engine needs to do more for some projects lined up and C games provides some of these options thus the engine will be reworked.

got it...good, now bugger off and wait till we are done with the current project (you will know the current one...when u see it..soon!)!

[siggins]

OOOOh i do have a update actually, sorry KS been held up with other stuff and not got back to you on this.

Right now a "something" is being coded and tested by a coder hired by us. Then more "somethings" are going to be done (yes its annoying ain't it), but to do these other "somethings" we will probably need more options which makes the likelihood of C games much much better as I think C games can cover these options.

Basically think of dws as a engine, the engine needs to do more for some projects lined up and C games provides some of these options thus the engine will be reworked.

got it...good, now bugger off and wait till we are done with the current project (you will know the current one...when u see it..soon!)!



You have me intrigued with the word "somethings"...... what are you up to.....

[siggins]

:yawn: :P

[Seabiscuit]

i cant wait. i loved c games, glad to see some works gonna go into them again. a feature that i would like to see added would be you could motivate junkies just like you could with your machine workers

[Phillthy]

Their back

[siggins]

Their back

Not yet,,..... you can sign up for c1 but it is just a normal A or B game.... doesnt have all of the C game changes..... hopefully those will be taking effect on the 18th..

[supernova]

it was something like this:...however this is part of what u wrote...i need to find the full list.

Drugs:
Drug Benefits:

Each drug in C games has a different benefit, they are as follows.

Crystal Meth: Junkies train twice as fast if they are training while on Crystal Meth.

LSD: LSD is easy to make in labs, your lab can yield 50% more LSD than other drugs.

Cocaine: Junkies love cocaine... when paid with this; they work 35% harder (35% more money from junkies).

Heroin: Junkie value heroin a little more than other drugs, they'll only expect 65% pay if it's in heroin.

Special K: When carrying Special K, every once in a while, you take a little sample. Each unit of Special K in your coat is equal to having drank 2 shakes.

Marijuana: There's not better way to study then with a little Marijuana in your system. For every 500 units in your coat, you can earn an extra 1 credits per turn from the University.

Ecstasy: These pills are so small; you can fit 5 times as many units in your coat compared to other drugs.

.

I think heroin, one of the top notch drugs, is quite useless as it only gives about $10 benefit per junkie, while cocaine might be a bit overpowered - extra $100 per junkie, even without credits.

As for the others, I think they'll all come handy at one point or another, depending on the strat.

[Mr Knuckles]

So is still the way the drugs are working or has it changed?????

Drugs:
Drug Benefits:

Each drug in C games has a different benefit, they are as follows.

Crystal Meth: Junkies train twice as fast if they are training while on Crystal Meth.

LSD: LSD is easy to make in labs, your lab can yield 50% more LSD than other drugs.

Cocaine: Junkies love cocaine... when paid with this; they work 35% harder (35% more money from junkies).

Heroin: Junkie value heroin a little more than other drugs, they'll only expect 65% pay if it's in heroin.

Special K: When carrying Special K, every once in a while, you take a little sample. Each unit of Special K in your coat is equal to having drank 2 shakes.

Marijuana: There's not better way to study then with a little Marijuana in your system. For every 500 units in your coat, you can earn an extra 1 credits per turn from the University.

Ecstasy: These pills are so small; you can fit 5 times as many units in your coat compared to other drugs.


Cartel Types (C GAMES ONLY!)

[Diezel]

C games will be Diezel dominated this test round will prove it ;)