A different perspective on Israel

[Furyous]

This was sent to me in an e-mail, originally posted on some forum. Makes for some interesting reading. It's a diferent perspective than I've heard, but I found myself agreeing with it. What say you?

-------------------------------------------------------------------

When I was in the Navy, I once witnessed a bar fight in downtown
Olongapo (Philippines) that still haunts my dreams. The fight was
Between a big guy and a rather soft-spoken, medium sized
Latino sailor from my ship.

All evening the guy had been trying to pick a fight with one of us
And had finally set his sights on this diminutive shipmate of mine...
Figuring him for a safe target. When my friend refused to be goaded
Into a fight the guy sucker punched him from behind on the side of
The head so hard that blood instantly started to pour from this poor
man's mutilated ear.

Everyone present was horrified and was prepared to absolutely murder
This guy, but my shipmate quickly turned on him and began to
Single-handedly back him towards a corner with a series of stinging
Jabs and upper cuts that gave more than a hint to a youth spent boxing
In a small gym in the Bronx.

Each punch opened a cut on the guy's startled face and by the time
He had been backed completely into the corner he was blubbering for
Someone to stop the fight. He invoked his split lips and chipped
Teeth as reasons to stop the fight. He begged us to stop the fight
Because he could barely see through the river of blood that was
Pouring out of his split and swollen brows.

Nobody moved. Not one person.

The only sound in the bar was the sickening staccato sound of this
Sailor's' lightning fast fists making contact with new areas of the
guy's head. The only sound I have heard since that was remotely
Similar was from the first Rocky film when Sylvester Stallone was
Punching sides of beef in the meat locker.

Finally the guy's pleading turned to screams.... A high, almost
Womanly shriek. And still the punches continued relentlessly.

Several people in the bar took a few tentative steps as though they
Wanted to try to break it up at that point, but hands reached out from
The crowd and held them tight. I'm not ashamed to say that mine were
Two of the hands that held someone back.

You see, in between each blow the sailor had begun chanting a soft
Cadence: "Say [punch] you [punch] give [punch] up [punch]... Say
[punch] you [punch]were [punch] wrong [punch]".

He had been repeating it to the guy almost from the start but we
Only became aware of it when the typical barroom cheers had died down
And we began to be sickened by the sight and sound of the carnage.

This guy stood there shrieking in the corner of the bar trying
Futilely to block the carefully timed punches that were cutting his
Head to tatters... Right down to the skull in places. But he refused
To say that he gave up... Or that he was wrong.

Even in the delirium of his beating he believed in his heart that
Someone would stop the fight before he had to admit defeat. I'm sure
This strategy had served him well in the past and had allowed him to
Continue on his career as a barroom bully.

Finally, in a wail of agony the guy shrieked "I give up", and we
Gently backed the sailor away from him.

I'm sure you can guess why I have shared this story today.

I'm not particularly proud to have been witness to such a bloody
Spectacle, and the sound of that guy's woman-like shrieks will
Haunt me to my grave. But, I learned something that evening that
Israel had better learn for itself if it is to finally be rid of at
Least one of its tormentors:

This is one time an Arab aggressor must be allowed to be beaten so
Badly that every civilized nation will stand in horror, wanting
Desperately to step in and stop the carnage... But knowing that the
Fight will only truly be over when one side gives up and finally
Admits defeat.

Just as every person who had ever rescued that bully from admitting
Defeat helped create the cowardly brute I saw that evening in the bar,
Every well-intentioned power that has ever stepped in and negotiated a
Ceasefire for an Arab aggressor has helped create the monsters we see
Around us today.

President Lahoud of Lebanon, a big Hezbollah supporter and a close
Ally of Syria, has been shrieking non-stop to the UN Security Council
For the past two days to get them to force Israel into a cease fire.

Clearly he has been reading his autographed copy of 'Military Success
For Arab Despots' by the late Gamal Abdel Nasser of Egypt. Ever
Since Nasser accidentally discovered the trick in '56, every
Subsequent Arab leader has stuck to his tried and true formula for
Military success:

1. Instigate a war.
2. Once the war is well underway and you are in the process of having
your ass handed to you... get a few world powers to force your western
opponent into a cease fire.
3. Whatever you do, don't surrender or submit to any terms dictated by
your enemy. That would ruin everything! All you have to do is wait
it out and eventually the world will become sickened at what is being
done to your soldiers and civilian population... and will force a
truce.
4. Once a truce has been called you can resume your intransigence
(which probably caused the conflict in the first place), and even
declare victory as your opponent leaves the field of battle.

This tactic has never failed. Not once.

In fact it worked so will for the Egyptians in 1973, that to this day they celebrate the
Yom Kippur War - a crushing defeat at the hands of
Israel - as a military victory! No kidding... it's a national
holiday over there!

President Lahoud has already begun to shriek like a school girl to the
UN Security Council to "Stop the violence and arrange a cease-fire,
and then after that we'll be ready to discuss all matters."

Uh huh. Forgive me if I find that a tad hard to swallow. He allowed
Hezbollah to take over his country. He allowed the regular Lebanese
army to provide radar targeting data for the Hezbollah missile that
struck the Israeli destroyer. He has turned a blind eye while Iranian
and Syrian weapons, advisers and money have poured into his country.

And now that his country is in ruins he wants to call it a draw.

As much as it may sicken the world to stand by and watch it happen,
strong hands need to hold back the weak-hearted and let the fight
continue until one side finally admits unambiguous defeat.
--

[KoRn]

So basically you condon a whole country being bombed to hell because a few people kidnapped some soliders? You're a disgrace. It's Isael who need to be taught a lesson.

[Kat]

It's very tempting to think of countries as though they were people; we understand how people work because we've lived around them all our lives, whereas most of us have no experience of international relations other than what the media tells us. I understand that the email is allegory, the parellel isn't meant to be direct, but to even suggest that a parellel is possible seems to me to be unhelpful. You can't think of relationships between contries in the same way as those between individuals; it's an attidude that causes all sorts of problems. The idea that one country can get retribution or revenge from another comes from this attitude, as does a lot of derogatory sterotyping of nationalities. Also, the idea that one country should help out another because of 'favours' done in the past (cf. the US's attitude to France in the build-up to the Iraq war), also derives from thinking of countries as people, with a continuous identity and an enduring responsibility for past actions.

Countries aren't like that, they're just large groups of people trying to live together. People are constantly being born, dying and migrating to and from countries; so countries aren't like people, they're transient, shifting things. Also, the people of a country are often not in control of their government (even, or perhaps especially, in the case of a democracy), who are seen to represent their country in the eyes of the international community. So, as Walker pointed out, it's wrong to condemn people to be bombed because of what their country has done.

I think allegories in general can be dangerous because they conceal their own lack of logic through the detachment of storytelling. Sometimes they seem to be saying "Look, situation A is like situation B in this way. And situation B has these characteristics, so situation A must have them too. And I'm telling you a nice little story so sit back and listen and don't worry about how ridiculous the point I'm trying to make is."

[Furyous]

Alright, what if you're brother was one of those soldiers that was so innocently kidnapped by the terrorist group that is supported by the people and the government of Lebanon? Would you still feel the same way? When someone punches you in the nose, do you turn around and walk away and hope they won't do it again? When they punch you in the nose every day, or at least once a month over a period of years, would you continue to walk away, and hope that some day they don't kill you? If that person also made threats that he was going to kill you and your whole family, would that be alright with you?
Look, all I'm saying is, you can't ignore certain things in life. Israel should have the right to go in and destroy these people who have been murdering their own people for ages now. The fact that the people of a country have let the terrorist group, Hezbolah into their homes is not Israel's fault. Hey, guess what. If I let the US military park a missile launcher in my back yard, I deserve to be blown the fuck up when my nation gets attacked!
My own stance on US involvement in the worlds conflicts is that we should just leave you all to blow yourselves up again. The world is so quick to point fingers at us when we don't react, but if we do react, it's more of the same. Guess what, I think it's time for us to pull out, let the rest of the world handle their own issues, and you can come begging for us to step back up to the plate when you've got another full blown world war knockin on your door.
There are some things this world would be better without, terrorist organizations are one of them. This is the new method of war brought to us by our friendly Muslim nations, and it is the new reality. Don't get me wrong, I lived in Afghanistan, and have many Afghan friends that I hold very dear to my heart. Not all Muslims are bad. Unfortunately for you Europeans, you have let many of them into your countries, and you guys are all in for a few surprises in the years to come. What's the fastest growing religion in Europe right now? Right-O ISLAM! So, think about it a little more. Put yourself in the shoes of the Israelis, imagine what it must be like. What would you think if the two nations bordering your country both attacked you within days of eachother. Would you demand that your military back off and leave those poor countries alone? I know I wouldn't.
I remember coming home from work just in time to turn on the TV and watch the Twin Towers fall. I was PISSED! I know when your time comes, you will have a better understanding of what the Israeli's are going through, and maybe then you'll think back to what they're doing now and realize that maybe they weren't necessarily so wrong. Maybe....

Hey, this is just one man's opinion. Don't be hating me for thinking differently than you. Feel free to share your opinions. Maybe we can all learn something from eachother....

[Mikey:)]

To make that story closer to the truth the bully would have hit your mate then ran home to hide... your mate didnt know which house he was in so to be sure justice was delivered he beat the shit out of everyone in that street, including old people, women & children... how justisfied is that?

My own stance on US involvement in the worlds conflicts is that we should just leave you all to blow yourselves up again. The world is so quick to point fingers at us when we don't react, but if we do react, it's more of the same. Guess what, I think it's time for us to pull out, let the rest of the world handle their own issues, and you can come begging for us to step back up to the plate when you've got another full blown world war knockin on your door.

Good call - stop funding Israel & bringing civil war in the name of freedom!

[Kat]

Alright, what if you're brother was one of those soldiers that was so innocently kidnapped by the terrorist group that is supported by the people and the government of Lebanon? Would you still feel the same way? When someone punches you in the nose, do you turn around and walk away and hope they won't do it again? When they punch you in the nose every day, or at least once a month over a period of years, would you continue to walk away, and hope that some day they don't kill you? If that person also made threats that he was going to kill you and your whole family, would that be alright with you?
In those situations I'd be angry and I probably would act in the way you imply. That's my point though - I'm a person- it's understandable (if not acceptable) for me to act on emotion or whim or stupidity. A country is a different thing entirely - you can't (at least I think it's non-sensical to do so) argue about international relations by using examples about individuals like the ones above.


Look, all I'm saying is, you can't ignore certain things in life. Israel should have the right to go in and destroy these people who have been murdering their own people for ages now.
Just those people, or anyone in the country where they're known to be?


The fact that the people of a country have let the terrorist group, Hezbolah into their homes is not Israel's fault.
I'd argue that the vast majority of Isralis have not given the consent that you say they have.


Hey, guess what. If I let the US military park a missile launcher in my back yard, I deserve to be blown the fuck up when my nation gets attacked!

Just you, or anyone who happened to live near you and be affected by your decision too?


My own stance on US involvement in the worlds conflicts is that we should just leave you all to blow yourselves up again. The world is so quick to point fingers at us when we don't react, but if we do react, it's more of the same. Guess what, I think it's time for us to pull out, let the rest of the world handle their own issues, and you can come begging for us to step back up to the plate when you've got another full blown world war knockin on your door.

From people I've spoken to, and things I've seen and read in the media, this is one of the attitudes that is damaging US international relations, and perceptions of the US and its people, the most at the moment. It's simply not true and I suspect it's what the US media has been feeding people.

There are some things this world would be better without, terrorist organizations are one of them. This is the new method of war brought to us by our friendly Muslim nations, and it is the new reality.
It's certainly not new, and I doubt anyone would be able to prove who started it.


Don't get me wrong, I lived in Afghanistan, and have many Afghan friends that I hold very dear to my heart. Not all Muslims are bad. Unfortunately for you Europeans, you have let many of them into your countries, and you guys are all in for a few surprises in the years to come. What's the fastest growing religion in Europe right now? Right-O ISLAM! So, think about it a little more. Put yourself in the shoes of the Israelis, imagine what it must be like. What would you think if the two nations bordering your country both attacked you within days of eachother. Would you demand that your military back off and leave those poor countries alone? I know I wouldn't.
Again, personal emotion cannot be related to international politics in such a simplistic way.[/quote]


I remember coming home from work just in time to turn on the TV and watch the Twin Towers fall. I was PISSED! I know when your time comes, you will have a better understanding of what the Israeli's are going through, and maybe then you'll think back to what they're doing now and realize that maybe they weren't necessarily so wrong. Maybe....
The US is not the only country that has been affected by terrorism, and I very much doubt it is the country that has been affected the most (or anywhere near for that matter)


Hey, this is just one man's opinion. Don't be hating me for thinking differently than you. Feel free to share your opinions. Maybe we can all learn something from eachother....
I hope we can too :)

[dov]

So basically you condon a whole country being bombed to hell because a few people kidnapped some soliders? You're a disgrace. It's Isael who need to be taught a lesson.
what about the idea nobody gets left behind (iwas watching blach hawk down yesterday) but theres no other way for iseral to gets its soilders back than to do this other than free 100's of terorists to them
also they want to stop another problem that evan before this war hezbalah was fireing rockets at isreal

[Q80Thug]

for all those who forgot we are all the same, bleed and cry the same


for all those who watch war and carnage at the comfort of their homes


for all those who lost their sense of humanity


for all those people that dont see the whole picture


this might remind you of those things that you forgot, this is a mother who died in between her young son's hands after an Israeli air raid
in south Lebanon





http://img130.imageshack.us/img130/4610/17ie5.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://img158.imageshack.us/img158/7454/27gc8.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://img68.imageshack.us/img68/7324/38lu4.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://img68.imageshack.us/img68/6941/45xf8.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://img68.imageshack.us/img68/6803/54mq2.jpg (http://imageshack.us)


Please, make it stop. these are human beings. please make it stop

[Bellows]

Firstly, im not convinced that these innocent Israeli's were even kidnapped, captured yes, but i doubt it was a kidnapping
http://www.forbes.com/technology/feeds/ap/2006/07/12/ap2873051.html

and secondly why have reservists been training for this operation before their 2 soldiers were innocently 'kidnapped'
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?c=JPArticle&cid=1150885978380&pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull

[dov]

Firstly, im not convinced that these innocent Israeli's were even kidnapped, captured yes, but i doubt it was a kidnapping
http://www.forbes.com/technology/feeds/ap/2006/07/12/ap2873051.html

and secondly why have reservists been training for this operation before their 2 soldiers were innocently 'kidnapped'
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?c=JPArticle&cid=1150885978380&pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull

1st the forbes link didnt work
2nd u honestly belive the isrealis wornt kidnaped then who did it its just like those :asshole: who say U.S. planned the 9/11 attacks to provoke war http://rinf.com/columnists/news/instructor-says-us-planned-the-911-attacks-to-provoke-war

for all those who forgot we are all the same, bleed and cry the same


for all those who watch war and carnage at the comfort of their homes


for all those who lost their sense of humanity


for all those people that dont see the whole picture


this might remind you of those things that you forgot, this is a mother who died in between her young son's hands after an Israeli air raid
in south Lebanon

Please, make it stop. these are human beings. please make it stop
i agree it should stop but there no way for it to be stopped till the terrists give back the kidnaped soilders b/c their ppl also

Cry to those Using Babies as Shields
By

Naomi Ragen

My son is in the army. He is not the type at all, believe
me. Quiet, studious, a writer, a lover of Jewish history,
Talmud, ethics. He spent two years in a pre-army program in
the Galilee called Karmei Chayil. He made many good friends
there from all over the country, and now he and all his
friends are in the army. One of them I know well. A bit
chubby, with payot, and a great laugh. He and my son have
become like brothers. While both of them tried out for the
elite paratroopers unit, only he made it in. He and his
unit are the ones in Lebanon. They were there over a week,
fighting under horrific conditions, running out of food and
water. Even though the Israeli airforce dropped tons of
leaflets warning civilians to flee because they were in
terrorist territory and likely to be injured, they still
encountered civilians. My son spoke to his friend
yesterday,and this is how he described it:
"The village looked empty, and then we heard noises coming
from one of the houses, so we opened fire. But when we
went inside, we found two women and a child huddled in the
corner of the room. We were so relieved we hadn't hurt
them. We took up base in one of the empty houses. And then
all of a sudden, we came under intense fire. Three rockets
were fired at the house we were in. Only one managed to
destroy a wall, which fell on one of us, covering him in
white dust, but otherwise not hurting him. I spent the
whole time feeding bullets to my friend who was shooting
non-stop. We managed to killed 26 terrorists. Not one of
us was hurt. Our commanding officer kept walking around,
touching everybody on the shoulder, smiling and encouraging
us: "We're are better than they are. Don't worry." It
calmed us all down. And really, we were much better then
them. They are a lousy army. They only win when they hide
behind baby carriages."

Please remember this when you hear about the "atrocity" of
the Israeli bomb dropped on Kfar Cana, killing many
civilians, a place from which Hezbollah has fired hundreds
of rockets at Israel. Unlike previous administrations, Mr.
Olmert has my respect when he says: "They were warned to
leave. It is the responsibility of Hezbollah for firing
rockets amidst civilians."

Terrorists and their supporters have lost the right to
complain about civilian casualties, since all they have done
this entire war is target civilians. Every single one of the
more than 2,500 rockets launched into Israel, is launched
into populated towns filled with women and children. Just
today, another suicide belt meant to kill civilians in
Israel was detonated harmlessly by our forces in Nablus. So
don't cry to me about civilian casualties. Cry to those
using your babies and wives and mothers; cry to those who
store weapons in mosques, ambulances, hospitals, and private
homes. Cry to those launching deadly rockets from the
backyards of your kindergartens and schools. Cry to the
heartless men who love death, and however many of their
troops or civilians die, consider themselves victorious as
long as they can keep on firing rockets at our women and
children.

Save your sympathy for the mothers and sisters and
girlfriends of our young soldiers who would rather be
sitting in study halls learning Torah, but have no choice
but to risk their precious lives full of hope, goodness and
endless potential, to wipe out the cancerous terrorist cells
that threaten their people and all mankind. Make your
choice, and save your tears.

That terrorists have been unsuccessful in killing more of
our women and children is due to our army, God and prayers,
not to any lack of motivation or intention on their part.
If you hide behind your baby to shoot at my baby, you are
responsible for getting children killed. You and you alone.

heres an email i got from a freind also to responf to G8thug

[Q80Thug]

put your self in their shoes, where would they go?! take that poor woman and her son: they live in a village and the only place they can leave to is another house in the same village set up as a shelter. you and everybody knows that these warning leaflets are useless and are just an execuse to start bombing villages to demolish any hizbollah hiding places, just as well that the kidnappings of two soldiers is also another execuse to start a military campaign.

[Furyous]

you and everybody knows that these warning leaflets are useless and are just an execuse to start bombing villages to demolish any hizbollah hiding places, just as well that the kidnappings of two soldiers is also another execuse to start a military campaign.

Dude! I learned a long time ago that you don't fuck with the big guy down the street. He'll kick your ass every time! So, guess what, you run down the street, punch the big guy and run, and he's gonna come find you and fuck your shit up! That's reality dude! Israel trains counter terrorism forces around the world. They are the best of the best when it comes to counter terrorism. They are the big guy down the street, and the Hizbolah was INSANE to think that they could do what they did and not have this outcome. They are a bunch of PUSSIES for hiding out behind their own people. Maybe those people will figure it out and force them to leave their country. There's a solution for ya!

[the squid of despair]

put your self in their shoes, where would they go?! take that poor woman and her son: they live in a village and the only place they can leave to is another house in the same village set up as a shelter. you and everybody knows that these warning leaflets are useless and are just an execuse to start bombing villages to demolish any hizbollah hiding places, just as well that the kidnappings of two soldiers is also another execuse to start a military campaign.

You're starting to make me wish the US had just let you guys get rolled over back in 91...

[Q80Thug]

Dude! I learned a long time ago that you don't fuck with the big guy down the street. He'll kick your ass every time! So, guess what, you run down the street, punch the big guy and run, and he's gonna come find you and fuck your shit up! That's reality dude! Israel trains counter terrorism forces around the world. They are the best of the best when it comes to counter terrorism. They are the big guy down the street, and the Hizbolah was INSANE to think that they could do what they did and not have this outcome. They are a bunch of PUSSIES for hiding out behind their own people. Maybe those people will figure it out and force them to leave their country. There's a solution for ya!

i'll go along your with your terminology: if the big guy has been bullying you for 20 years while the whole block is watching, no matter how small you are compared to him you will eventually snap and hit the big guy even that you know he might kill you because there is nothing else you can do but hit him and the only way you can achieve it is by smacking him and running and doing it over and over again...



let me state my opinion clearly: what hizbollah did was wrong, escilating violance after so many years of piece between the two countries, which resulted in all the effort in establishing borders between isreal and lebanon gone all to waste. however, isreal reaction is far from justified too.

[Q80Thug]

You're starting to make me wish the US had just let you guys get rolled over back in 91...


we have never forgoten the debt we owe the US military from saving us from the dictator saddam, and to those soldiers who would risked their life for me and my family who have nothing incommon with them but flesh and blood. a debt which we try to show it to by donating 500 miliion to the katrina disaster and many other ways too.


now You're starting to make me think you dont deserve such thing.




P.S :stayon:

[the squid of despair]

we have never forgoten the debt we owe the US military from saving us from the dictator saddam, and to those soldiers who would risked their life for me and my family who have nothing incommon with them but flesh and blood. a debt which we try to show it to by donating 500 miliion to the katrina disaster and many other ways too.


now You're starting to make me think you dont deserve such thing.




P.S :stayon:

For the record, I didn't see a dime of that 500 million. Maybe next time. :(

Do you think Kuwait would have done the same thing Israel is doing to Hezbolah if they were capable? Would the Kuwati governmet have taken that abuse if they were powerful enough to stop it?

[dov]

let me state my opinion clearly: what hizbollah did was wrong, escilating violance after so many years of piece between the two countries, which resulted in all the effort in establishing borders between isreal and lebanon gone all to waste. however, isreal reaction is far from justified too.
isreal is doing the same thing the us did in afganastan and the leban do deserve it at least the gov because there supporting a terrist organisation there are lebanese soilders fighting alongside of the hibolah terrists against isreal.

[liberian]

it disturbs me to see a war like this.so many innocent people killed because of two government border side by side couldn't worked out there problems. lots of kids killed.have anybody here ever been in the middle of a war? well i have and it hunts me still from my childhood. what is this world coming too.

[VikesWookie]

i'll go along your with your terminology: if the big guy has been bullying you for 20 years while the whole block is watching, no matter how small you are compared to him you will eventually snap and hit the big guy even that you know he might kill you because there is nothing else you can do but hit him and the only way you can achieve it is by smacking him and running and doing it over and over again...



let me state my opinion clearly: what hizbollah did was wrong, escilating violance after so many years of piece between the two countries, which resulted in all the effort in establishing borders between isreal and lebanon gone all to waste. however, isreal reaction is far from justified too.

I'm missing the part where Israel is the bully (big guy). How do they oppress their neighbors? Or is it more jealousy of their freedoms?

I agree, I wish Israel had taken different measures to right the wrong... but it's hard for me to comment on something that has been going on for centuries. Where's the solution?

[dov]

isreal is investigating the general who was in charge of the attack so maybe this wasnt the best way to do this but there is no real solution because everyone wants the same land