Science? Religion? Science vs religion?

[St.Michael]

Well after having an intellectual debate in the SB with a few people we've decided to post this ever-debated topic for everyone to get their licks in. Feel free to critique modern scientific theories, the different types of religions, or whether you think science or religion holds more truth. Try to keep it civilized.


The last discussion we had was talking about how our universe started. Some theories that were brought up were the big bang theory, the string theory, and the divine creation theory. What do you guys think? Make sure and back up your statements or we'll call you stupid and give you bad rep:P

[tca]

Serious discussion, we hafta be civilised.

Now im gonna take a stab right into science vs religion here, im atheist, therefore i believe more in science then anything else, now im by no means saying science can explain EVERYTHING, as thats impossible for anyone to do, but i do believe science holds way more plausibility then religion.

Religious people believe and lets be frank, ridiculous things, honestly. Now not to mention the continuous flaws you can find in every religion, yet they just chalk that up to you gotta have faith (did i just say the name of a george michael song) anyways, there is too many holes in religion for it to hold water.

Finishing this post below

[Vassili_Zaitsev]

science: string theory kicks ass..i guess/ religion: well this is kinda weird since im supporting science but sure why cant their be a god/ sci vs. relig.: miracles do happen thats relig. but science is just so kick ass that it cant not be right sometimes.

so i guess im kinda neutral on all subjects?

[Bellows]

I'll just post this link for the moment,

Big Bang's Top 30 Problems

http://metaresearch.org/cosmology/BB-top-30.asp

[St.Michael]

What flaws are you talking about in religion TCA? Correct me if i'm wrong but Science, like religion, is nothing more than theory. Scientists using math and other scientific tools to their disposal come up with an idea as to how the universe started and use math and science to attempt to back up their theory. Their are many many flaws in science because scientists can't know for sure because its "beyond our comprehension of modern physics". Isn't that just like religious fanatics saying "you gotta have faith"? Neither side knows for sure but seem to have a default answer to questions they can't answer. The point i'm trying to make is that I don't believe any one theory holds weight over another.


As we gain more and more knowledge, previous theories that some scientists considered absolute fact are disproven. For example, darwin's theory of evolution, he believed that all life forms evolved from one specific life form. But due to the 'irreducible complexity' associated with the biochemistry at a molecular and cellular level, the theory cannot be applied to the evolution of life at this fundamental level, which implies other factors must be operating in the evolutionary process.


We may never know all the answers to how our universe was created, its possible that we weren't ment to know with our limited capacity for knowledge. Whose to say that science and religion don't go hand in hand? If a divine creator was powerful enough to create all this, whose to say he also didn't invent science? Which brings to mind the subject of athiests, just because you believe in science and math doesn't mean you can't admit the fact that religion is a credible theory. To say you are athiest is to say that without a doubt there is no God or gods ( I can see the flaming coming, "I don't believe in God because look at all the murder, theft, rape, and just sensless violence in the world today"...Its called free will, christians will say its a gift from God because in order for us to truly love him we must love him with our own will and not be his puppet. Inevitably God knew that although some will love him, others will reject him.) when I don't see how you could be so certain. What I do believe is what they called "weak athiesm" or an agnostic. An agnostic believes we cannot know whether or not God exists, and should therefore neither believe nor disbelieve in him.

[tca]

Science holds more plausibility over religion because if you think about it, what has science done over the past 40 or 50 years? How far have they come? Imagine what they'll discover/learn/create etc.

What im saying is basically science continues to grow, while religion im pretty sure stays based on the same principles constantly, Im atheist as stated, i don't wanna die, don't get me wrong, i hope there is a god, heaven and all that jazz, but im 99% sure we're right.

That being said, will any of us ever really know one way or another? I don't wanna kill myself to find out the answer, That'd just be silly. Anyways wrapping up my nonsense babble, Science rocks, just on how they continue to learn more, create more, discover more and learn more all the time, whilst science advances and is based on theory etc i will give you that, it has and always will leave religion behind.

[Tonglong43]

What flaws are you talking about in religion TCA? Correct me if i'm wrong but Science, like religion, is nothing more than theory. Scientists using math and other scientific tools to their disposal come up with an idea as to how the universe started and use math and science to attempt to back up their theory. Their are many many flaws in science because scientists can't know for sure because its "beyond our comprehension of modern physics". Isn't that just like religious fanatics saying "you gotta have faith"? Neither side knows for sure but seem to have a default answer to questions they can't answer. The point i'm trying to make is that I don't believe any one theory holds weight over another.


As we gain more and more knowledge, previous theories that some scientists considered absolute fact are disproven. For example, darwin's theory of evolution, he believed that all life forms evolved from one specific life form. But due to the 'irreducible complexity' associated with the biochemistry at a molecular and cellular level, the theory cannot be applied to the evolution of life at this fundamental level, which implies other factors must be operating in the evolutionary process.


We may never know all the answers to how our universe was created, its possible that we weren't ment to know with our limited capacity for knowledge. Whose to say that science and religion don't go hand in hand? If a divine creator was powerful enough to create all this, whose to say he also didn't invent science? Which brings to mind the subject of athiests, just because you believe in science and math doesn't mean you can't admit the fact that religion is a credible theory. To say you are athiest is to say that without a doubt there is no God or gods ( I can see the flaming coming, "I don't believe in God because look at all the murder, theft, rape, and just sensless violence in the world today"...Its called free will, christians will say its a gift from God because in order for us to truly love him we must love him with our own will and not be his puppet. Inevitably God knew that although some will love him, others will reject him.) when I don't see how you could be so certain. What I do believe is what they called "weak athiesm" or an agnostic. An agnostic believes we cannot know whether or not God exists, and should therefore neither believe nor disbelieve in him.
Correction science is not a theory it's a method.

[St.Michael]

Science holds more plausibility over religion because if you think about it, what has science done over the past 40 or 50 years? How far have they come? Imagine what they'll discover/learn/create etc.

What im saying is basically science continues to grow, while religion im pretty sure stays based on the same principles constantly, Im atheist as stated, i don't wanna die, don't get me wrong, i hope there is a god, heaven and all that jazz, but im 99% sure we're right.

That being said, will any of us ever really know one way or another? I don't wanna kill myself to find out the answer, That'd just be silly. Anyways wrapping up my nonsense babble, Science rocks, just on how they continue to learn more, create more, discover more and learn more all the time, whilst science advances and is based on theory etc i will give you that, it has and always will leave religion behind.


I am in no way bashing science, I believe science has its purposes and has come a long way over the years. I grew up understanding religion as a lifestyle, a set up guidelines that God has given me directing my path in life. While it does talk about how the world begins and ends it doesn't get into alot of detail.

Religion isn't stagnant, it doesn't stay the same over the years. Archeologists have continually discovered lost cities and artifacts that support the old testament bible (I don't have time to get specific but when I do have time i'll look up some stuff and post it). To me science is our way of explaining something that God has created.

I would rather error on the side of christianity than of science, because if I were to believe in science and not in God and God proves to be real then i'll spend the rest of eternity in hell. But if I believe in God my whole life and when I die nothing happens...well...I lived a good life I guess. Thats a poor reason to believe in God but while I have a side that believes and has faith, I also have a curious, logical side of me that wants to explain everything.


Method, theory, whatever. Scientists use science to prove their theory on how life was created, my point is that its a theory and holds no more weight than religion.

[tca]

Im not fussed either way, i'd be stoked to be alive for eternity ;)

[St.Michael]

Im not fussed either way, i'd be stoked to be alive for eternity ;)


The question is...Is it going to be in heaven? Or in hell where you'll burn in a lake of sulfar, dark, and alone. (LOL classic theist scare tactic)

[tca]

i like the dark, im more or less alone and chemicals are fun

[St.Michael]

i like the dark, im more or less alone and chemicals are fun

lmao, as much as thats funny I get depressed when I realize how not funny it will actually be. Does that make sense? I've been up for too long.

[tca]

lol i know michael, im taking the piss, but if there is a hell, im sure as hell hell bound, i can accept that, shit happens

hope the devil has adsl though :P

[tca]

oh, so it'll be just the same as now then? cept i won't have to put up with that bastard of a sun

ok we better let this get back serious now

[DnD]

The problem with debating science vs religion, is that by the nature of either school of though, they are impossible to disprove. By God's supposed infinate power, anything scientific could be part of God's own divine creation, and then we start getting into threories of intelligent design, etc. and on the other hand, any atheist can easily say, 'there is a scientific explenation, we just dont know it yet'.
I would say Science is more likely by Occam's Razor, but neither school of thought is very simple, so i guess that doesn't mean much.

but if were just sharing perspectives, i think its more likely that reality as we know it fell into place on its own in a series of almost mechanical reactions, simply because the idea of God sculpting everything to his own design seems so far out to me, but i was never brought up to be religious either.

[VikesWookie]

Religion is an expression of faith...

[Cowboy From Hell]

I honestly don't think it's science vs religion, If you think about it there is no reason they should be in conflict. And I'm talkning serious religion. (it's not about arguing if we were created by God or evolved after billions of years).

"Science" is how we try to understand and describe everything around us. On the other hand "Religion" tries to go beyond that, involving a more phylosophycal approach, and leaving it all to a matter of faith.

Science moves much more faster, it is base on previous knowledge called "facts" and sometimes it proves itself wrong, which only means we need to work harder in finding another way.
Religion is much more weaker in this one, many of it's ideals are centuries old, which were created by men who were intrested in keeping control & fear. This is why I think it's vital to notice the difference between Religion and Church, where the term "church" I see it as an Institution created and ruled by men, therefore as men, the Church is flawed and not perfect.

[odd th0mas]

just for shits and giggles, let's assume two things to be true, hypothetically:

1.) god is within us all; ie pineal gland.

2.)No big-bang! the creative force in the universe is electricity instead of gravity, which could explain why the solar-winds actually increase in velocity the further they get from the sun!


both these concepts hold water and could be proven true in near future. how would 'thinking man's' reality be changed?

[St.Michael]

The problem with debating science vs religion, is that by the nature of either school of though, they are impossible to disprove. By God's supposed infinate power, anything scientific could be part of God's own divine creation, and then we start getting into threories of intelligent design, etc. and on the other hand, any atheist can easily say, 'there is a scientific explenation, we just dont know it yet'.
I would say Science is more likely by Occam's Razor, but neither school of thought is very simple, so i guess that doesn't mean much.

but if were just sharing perspectives, i think its more likely that reality as we know it fell into place on its own in a series of almost mechanical reactions, simply because the idea of God sculpting everything to his own design seems so far out to me, but i was never brought up to be religious either.


I find it harder to believe that we all evolved from some slime billions of years ago than a divine creator creating everything. Anyway, that aspect of darwins theory was disproven.

[Jimmy James]

I would rather error on the side of christianity than of science, because if I were to believe in science and not in God and God proves to be real then i'll spend the rest of eternity in hell. But if I believe in God my whole life and when I die nothing happens...well...I lived a good life I guess. Thats a poor reason to believe in God but while I have a side that believes and has faith, I also have a curious, logical side of me that wants to explain everything.

if you ask me, that sounds exactly like Pascal's Gambit

[St.Michael]

if you ask me, that sounds exactly like Pascal's Gambit


Your correct it is, but I think it makes sense.


"If you believe in God and turn out to be incorrect, you have lost nothing -- but if you don't believe in God and turn out to be incorrect, you will go to hell. Therefore it is foolish to be an atheist."

[DnD]

Religion is an expression of faith...

i was only thinking about creation theory, because thats seems to be the area where they clash most.

[St.Michael]

Of all the scientific theories on how the universe was created, what do you think is more credible?

Big Bang? String theory?

website for the string theory http://www.superstringtheory.com/

website for Big Bang theory http://www.big-bang-theory.com/

[Mark]

The problem i have with relgion is that it explains nothing at all. all it says is that god did it and thats the end of the issue. And what i find amazing is that they all assume they have picked the right relgion every argument they use could be used for and mytholgy in the history of mankind. Ireducable complexity means that it is clear that Wodin the norse god created us from a pile of wood.

[Bellows]

odd thomas: have you experienced DMT by any chance?

[St.Michael]

The problem i have with relgion is that it explains nothing at all. all it says is that god did it and thats the end of the issue. And what i find amazing is that they all assume they have picked the right relgion every argument they use could be used for and mytholgy in the history of mankind. Ireducable complexity means that it is clear that Wodin the norse god created us from a pile of wood.


Maybe your brain is too small to understand how he did it...

[Mark]

prehaps your brain is too small to understand logic and reasoning. How do you know that your religon is the right one? St Michael please answer succinctly why of all the relgion in the history of mankind why are you right and billions of people wrong

[SweetHoney]

Well now...

The first thing that occurs to me is that both "religion" and "science" are methods for studying two very different elements. Science deals predominently with physical things, and religion deals more with spiritual matters. Both studies happen to be attempting to prove and disprove truths of very elusive natures.

My views on these topics differ greatly from those of my peers, so let me explain how I came by them.

Purely for the sake of simplicity, let's assume that when we say "religion", that what we mean is the act of believing in the God of Christianity. This in and of itself does not constitute a problem. According to the bible adhered to by most christians, "God breathed, that which He is, into us to give us life." It is my opinion that God IS real, He is the energy that courses through us, that which animates our physical bodies.

It is my understanding that science has proven that "energy" does not die, nor does it stop moving, therefore one must come to the conclusion also that the energy OF that "God within us" leaves the physical form upon death to become a part of something else. Our body returns to that which was it's source to begin with, both in the physical sense and in the spiritual one as well.

To take this one step further, let us realize that "religion vs. science" is a pointless arguement as the two are not meant to be separate, nor are they to be fully understood. Faith merely means that you believe in something you do not have enough proof TO believe in. I have faith in both science and religion as it pertains to this topic because I am of the opinion that one cannot truly exist without the other, as all of life is steeped heavily in both factions...both of a physical and a spiritual nature. One cannot exist without the other.

We cannot expect to prove, nor to disprove, the existence of God, the beginning of the universe, or the logic to religion and science.

[Mikey:)]

Good post Sweethoney, views similar to my own only I have chosen no religion to follow. I suppose the great debate on religion vs science comes down to the question of creation, that is where the two paths collide.

[GENERAL. May Hemm]

If God created the universe and all that it contains, then He also created the dinosoars. Did He also give them free will? At what point in creation did He decide that the dinosaurs were a mistake and wipe them out? and WHY?

Exodus 20:5
"I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God,"

Exodus 34:14
"Do not worship any other god, for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God."

Exodus 20:5 (New International Version)
You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me,