Women are like Uncovered Meat

[the squid of despair]

Can any one explaing why this article is so offensive and why Australians want to deport this man for freely speaking his mind there?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=412697&in_page_id=1770

[Nickything]

You don't think it is offensive for someone to say that it is a women's fault for being raped if she is not wearing the hijab? I'd be fairly offended if anyone described me as uncovered meat anyway but to imply that raped women have it coming to them because of their attire is beyond offensive in this day and age.

[Pleb]

I reckon it has to come down to the rape issue.

[the squid of despair]

You don;t think it is offensive for someone to say that it is a women's fault for being raped if she is not wearing the hijab?

It may be, but it is their religious belief and part of their culture. I find it a bit more offensive when certain Muslims threaten the "Western" world with Jihad and death. Why should this man be deported for speaking his views?

Edited for Nicky,

The comparison could have been anything someone or something would lust for. A cat to raw meat, a cat to milk, a dog to a bone. So I assume everyone thinks he meant raw meat, and didn't just choose that by coincidence in his speach?

[Pleb]

He didn't distinguish between Muslim women and the rest of the female population of Australia.

[GayAsInHappy]

Free speech is one thing, inciting violence is another. This man is in a position of influence and has essentially said that a man who rapes a woman is not to blame, because it is his nature to act on his temptations.

His exact words:

"If you take out uncovered meat and place it outside on the street, or in the garden or in the park, or in the backyard without a cover, and the cats come and eat it..whose fault is it - the cats or the uncovered meat?"

I lived in a heavily Muslim area, and in explaining the use of the hijab, the women gave me a similar explanation. The difference was that they were protecting themselves from SICK rapists (who were considered responsible for their actions) and showing respect to their husbands, fathers and Allah by removing the threat of general sexual desire. Their argument went more like this: If you show your body, men are more LIKELY to be tempted, either in thought or action, and to remove the "sin" of sexual thought or action, they cover themselves. No one ever told me they thought they deserved to be raped if they chose not to wear the hijab.

To liken humans with animals who are not expected to have any impulse control is irresponsible. Where the analogy falls apart (no matter if milk, meat or catnip) is that women are not offered up to men by their mere presence as food is to cats. If cats don't eat, they starve...of course they will scavenge. Rape is a crime of violence and power, it is not a necessity for survival.

C'mon Killaho, you know exactly why this guy is wrong.

[Honeypot]

This is one of the most ridiculous things that I have ever heard. Come on Killaho, are you just trying to stir things up in the forum again? Seriously, why did you even post this thread?

First of all for the uncovered meat comment... It wouldn't be the cat or the meats fault that the meat was eaten by the cat. It would be the stupid person who put the meat out to be eaten by the cat without thinking that the cat would actually eat it. That was a really stupid analogy (sp?).

And the fact that this is a Shiek at the Mosque is ridiculous. He tried to backtrack and say that these statements were about adultry, but he's defending serial rapists? Come on. It's never a womans fault for being raped. And it's not human nature for a man to rape a woman either. The men who do go around raping women are sick, they have serious mental issues, and realistically can't be compared to normal humans.

I don't agree with the other guy who says that muslim woman shouldn't wear the Jihab's either... People are people, and if it is their culture or religion to wear it, they should be able to. In this day and age, people should be used to that. It's not creating any communication problems. Get over it.

Anyway, I could go on and on and on about this, but I'm going to stop here. This is a stupid subject, and the Sheik should never have stated that. I don't know about deporting him, but he shouldn't be able to preach at the Mosque anymore :D

[Quaker]

by the same logic of most posters on this board can we please get rid of Michael phelps already?

[Nickything]

This Michael Phelps? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Phelps

Sorry I don't see the connection

[Quaker]

This Michael Phelps? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Phelps

Sorry I don't see the connection

Im sorry got em mixed up.... Fred phelps.

[Nickything]

Ah yes, good old gay hating Fred.. Yep Quaker I think we could safely do without twats like him

[Pleb]

Yea its the same level of incitement IMO.

[the squid of despair]

Settle down ladies. I don't seem to recall where I said women should be held accountable for being raped, maybe you can show me that. Every one knows that it was th raw meat comment that pushed people over. If a different analogy was used, it wouldn't have caused a world news issue.

Sorry if you don't understand why I posted this thread. I don't understand why there is a fuss in Australia over this, and why people want him deported. People do and say things, far worse, Muslims or not, and it goes to the wayside.

[SweetHoney]

Women are not meat.
Men are not cats.
Rape does not fulfill the need for nutritional sustenance.

Although I do not agree with the comparison, nor the conclusion...I see no relevance for deporting the man if he has the right to speak freely. Unfortunately, where we would otherwise choose to protect our women and children from such evil, we are torn because we value freedom of speech.

The women who are raised in the Muslim society lack the knowledge and wisdom to know they should not be treated with so little dignity. They are forbidden the right to a public education is my understanding. If I chose to attend a church/mosque that believes that women are second class citizens in the first place, I would likely expect this type of rhetoric from my "teacher", therefore the problem is not in the man but in the teachings.

Sadly enough this identification does NOT solve the problem. The Muslim women need the education to correct their wrong-thinking counterparts. Harsh but true...it's an internal issue for the most part.

[Pleb]

I don't agree that the meat comment is provoking all the outrage, although I would agree that its giving the incident more media time than it might otherwise have received....its perfect for the tabloids:(

The incitement factor is what would provide the legal/moral justification for deporting him....In the end of the day, its not illegal to call someone names, but it (probably - I'm not very familiar with Australian law) is illegal to incite people to commit a crime.

If you're saying that had he simply said that women without veils who "'sway suggestively' and wore make-up and immodest dress " were where the rape problem begins, there wouldn't be the public call for him to be deported...well, to be honest I disagree. With the current strong pro- and anti- Muslim feelings around, and especially in a country like Australia with its recent racist/immigration issues, I reckon he would have caused an uproar anyway.

[Furyous]

I hear what you're saying Killaho. I've heard the same arguments from men who were not Muslims back home in the US before. I think they're going a bit overboard on the whole deportation issue. I don't agree with his point of view, but does what he said really justify deportation? In my book, it does not!

[Quaker]

The women who are raised in the Muslim society lack the knowledge and wisdom to know they should not be treated with so little dignity. They are forbidden the right to a public education is my understanding. WOW could you be any farther from the truth? Please watch / research something other than fox news.

[the squid of despair]

WOW could you be any farther from the truth? Please watch / research something other than fox news.

Are you going to contribute to any of the serious discussions you keep posting in? Or just flame here and there or leave asinine comments?

[Honeypot]

Settle down ladies. I don't seem to recall where I said women should be held accountable for being raped, maybe you can show me that. Every one knows that it was th raw meat comment that pushed people over. If a different analogy was used, it wouldn't have caused a world news issue.

Sorry if you don't understand why I posted this thread. I don't understand why there is a fuss in Australia over this, and why people want him deported. People do and say things, far worse, Muslims or not, and it goes to the wayside.

lol... I wasn't saying that you said that at all. I was just pointing to the fact that you always seem to have something negative to say. The Sheik who you are referring to said those things, but you did start the thread.

I agree that he shouldn't be deported over this, that's taking it a little far. Afterall, there is freedom of speech. I just don't agree with what he said, and he shouldn't be preaching this. For that he should not be allowed to be preaching at that Mosque anymore. I don't think it's right for the government to get involved. This is a religious issue, and should be dealt with accordingly within the Mosque itself.

SweetHoney, you are way off on that. The muslim/islamic religion actually promotes woman's rights. It's just sad that the "bad" people use it against them. A lot of muslim women choose to wear the Jihab, it's not really imposed on them. It's all in their beliefs. Some choose not to wear it, but many of them feel more comfortable that way. :D

Killaho--- I do have to give you credit now though, this is turning into a good debate :D

[Quaker]

Are you going to contribute to any of the serious discussions you keep posting in? Or just flame here and there or leave asinine comments?

What is that phrase... Pot calling the kettle black?

[SweetHoney]

First off, I think I said it was "my understanding" that women within the Muslim society were forbidden to get a public education. I was not speaking of those women outside of the culture.

It is my OPINION that:
Only in the last decade or so have these things begun to change. What was once the norm, is no more, but that does not make it any easier for those women to understand those values that are considered by the rest of the world as appropriate. They will need to unlearn the behavior and patterns imbedded by thousands of years of conditioning. Only in the coming generations will the effects of the current learning curve be properly felt.

Second...Fox news is fairly far away from the likely channels on my television, but I appreciate your attempt at sarcastic humor nonetheless.

WOW could you be any farther from the truth? Please watch / research something other than fox news.

[Pleb]

I don't think it's right for the government to get involved. This is a religious issue, and should be dealt with accordingly within the Mosque itself.

Its not a religious issue though. If he's saying that women who don't wear the hajib etc are responsible for rapes committed against them, that can be interpreted as incitement (I'm not saying that I agree with that intrepretation), and incitement to commit a crime is an offence (at least in the state of Victoria - I couldn't find other relevant legislation, but I would be surprised if it was any different elsewhere in the country).

From http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/vic/consol_act/vocaa1996271/s3.html

"relevant offence" means-

( a) an offence, punishable on conviction by imprisonment, that involves an
assault on, or injury or a threat of injury to, a person; or

(b) an offence against Subdivision (8A), (8B), (8C), (8D) or (8E) of
Division 1 of Part I of the Crimes Act 1958 or any corresponding
previous enactment (sexual offences) or an offence at common law of
rape or assault with intent to rape; or

(c) an offence against section 21A(1) of the Crimes Act 1958 (stalking),
section 63 of that Act (child stealing) or section 63A of that Act
(kidnapping) or any corresponding previous enactment; or

(d) an offence of conspiracy to commit, incitement to commit or attempting
to commit an offence referred to in paragraph ( a), (b) or (c);


That being said...is deportation too much? Possibly.

[Furyous]

As far as Muslims not educating women goes, that's not necessarily true. It's kind of a blanket statement.
After my time in Afghanistan, I've come to know quite a bit more about Muslims and what's making things tick over in the mid-east.

1) The Hajib, at least in Afghanistan was not worn by many young women. Some of them chose to wear it, but that was usually a personal prefference. Sometimes it was something that their family asked them to do as well.

2) There were almost as many women enrolled at Kabul Medical University, where I worked for 6 months, as men. They consistently scored higher on exams, and were more motivated to learn.

The real problem as I see it is, women are not valued, at least in Afghanistan. When you have a child, everyone hopes that you have a boy. A woman cannot own property and cannot work without her husbands permission, and therefor has very little value to the poor working class family. While there are jobs available, most people will not hire a single or widowed woman just because that's the way it's been as long as they could remember. They just don't know any better.

The other issue is that these people live on incredibly tight budgets. Most families are rather large, one of my employees earned about $200 USD a month, and had 14 kids and two wives. Being that your sons are "more important", when on a tight budget, the only kids that you could "afford" to educate are your boys. Education is "semi-public" in Afganistan now, but you still have to pay for pencils, paper, and other miscellaneous costs. In places like Pakistan it is only provided by the Mosques for free, and a woman is not permitted to study at the mosque. So, it depends on what country you are speaking about as to what level of eductaion women are permitted to attain, as well as the individual family.

*SH*
You are absolutely correct. Many of these teachings are old and taught just because that's the way it's always been. I believe that the current generation of young people in Afghanistan will help pave the way for more womens rights etc... Only with time will there be any measurable change...

[the squid of despair]

What is that phrase... Pot calling the kettle black?

Didn't think so.

[SweetHoney]

Thank you for this. Constructive. Helpful to those of us that watch too much Fox News. *teehee*


As far as Muslims not educating women goes, that's not necessarily true. It's kind of a blanket statement.
After my time in Afghanistan, I've come to know quite a bit more about Muslims and what's making things tick over in the mid-east.

1) The Hajib, at least in Afghanistan was not worn by many young women. Some of them chose to wear it, but that was usually a personal prefference. Sometimes it was something that their family asked them to do as well.

2) There were almost as many women enrolled at Kabul Medical University, where I worked for 6 months, as men. They consistently scored higher on exams, and were more motivated to learn.

The real problem as I see it is, women are not valued, at least in Afghanistan. When you have a child, everyone hopes that you have a boy. A woman cannot own property and cannot work without her husbands permission, and therefor has very little value to the poor working class family. While there are jobs available, most people will not hire a single or widowed woman just because that's the way it's been as long as they could remember. They just don't know any better.

The other issue is that these people live on incredibly tight budgets. Most families are rather large, one of my employees earned about $200 USD a month, and had 14 kids and two wives. Being that your sons are "more important", when on a tight budget, the only kids that you could "afford" to educate are your boys. Education is "semi-public" in Afganistan now, but you still have to pay for pencils, paper, and other miscellaneous costs. In places like Pakistan it is only provided by the Mosques for free, and a woman is not permitted to study at the mosque. So, it depends on what country you are speaking about as to what level of eductaion women are permitted to attain, as well as the individual family.

*SH*
You are absolutely correct. Many of these teachings are old and taught just because that's the way it's always been. I believe that the current generation of young people in Afghanistan will help pave the way for more womens rights etc... Only with time will there be any measurable change...

[Honeypot]

As far as Muslims not educating women goes, that's not necessarily true. It's kind of a blanket statement.
After my time in Afghanistan, I've come to know quite a bit more about Muslims and what's making things tick over in the mid-east.

1) The Hajib, at least in Afghanistan was not worn by many young women. Some of them chose to wear it, but that was usually a personal prefference. Sometimes it was something that their family asked them to do as well.

2) There were almost as many women enrolled at Kabul Medical University, where I worked for 6 months, as men. They consistently scored higher on exams, and were more motivated to learn.

The real problem as I see it is, women are not valued, at least in Afghanistan. When you have a child, everyone hopes that you have a boy. A woman cannot own property and cannot work without her husbands permission, and therefor has very little value to the poor working class family. While there are jobs available, most people will not hire a single or widowed woman just because that's the way it's been as long as they could remember. They just don't know any better.

The other issue is that these people live on incredibly tight budgets. Most families are rather large, one of my employees earned about $200 USD a month, and had 14 kids and two wives. Being that your sons are "more important", when on a tight budget, the only kids that you could "afford" to educate are your boys. Education is "semi-public" in Afganistan now, but you still have to pay for pencils, paper, and other miscellaneous costs. In places like Pakistan it is only provided by the Mosques for free, and a woman is not permitted to study at the mosque. So, it depends on what country you are speaking about as to what level of eductaion women are permitted to attain, as well as the individual family.

*SH*
You are absolutely correct. Many of these teachings are old and taught just because that's the way it's always been. I believe that the current generation of young people in Afghanistan will help pave the way for more womens rights etc... Only with time will there be any measurable change...

You're absolutely right... I was stating what I know about the religion itself. And it tends to be highly misunderstood. It is not the muslim/islamic religion that teaches this way. It is the society in which many of the people who follow this religion live that holds women back. I guess I figured that since we are discussing a Mosque in Australia that the society is not as much a factor in the way they study the religion. However, I don't know what goes on in Australia as far as this is concerned, so I can't really speak on that.

[SweetHoney]

I'm thinking that educated men should be offended by this rationale as well...shouldn't they? They are being portrayed as being incapable of NOT raping an undressed woman. However true this may be for some of you...it seems a bit wrong to me for the majority of men.

[GayAsInHappy]

I'm thinking that educated men should be offended by this rationale as well...shouldn't they? They are being portrayed as being incapable of NOT raping an undressed woman. However true this may be for some of you...it seems a bit wrong to me for the majority of men.



Good point SH. By the cleric's logic, rape should be rampant at beaches around the world, where women wear nothing but bathing suits (or, gasp, just the bottoms.) Now if he'd said that men can't control a boner, I might agree :)

[Honeypot]

Good point SH. By the cleric's logic, rape should be rampant at beaches around the world, where women wear nothing but bathing suits (or, gasp, just the bottoms.) Now if he'd said that men can't control a boner, I might agree :)

So true... So true...
Most men are not like animals in that way. They are able to control their sexual urges. Regardless of how difficult it might be for them, they have the logic that says raping a woman is bad, so they don't do it. It's stupid to say that these women were raped because they didn't cover themselves up properly.

[Jacx]

good debate...good thread killaho..keep it up!

[tca]

Good point SH. By the cleric's logic, rape should be rampant at beaches around the world, where women wear nothing but bathing suits (or, gasp, just the bottoms.) Now if he'd said that men can't control a boner, I might agree :)

Completey untrue, some guys can't, but most of us can.

Rapists are just fucking sick in the head, as for this sheik idiot, i don't agree with that he said either, infact, he makes me fucking sick, but he rightfully, shouldn't be deported.

He shouldn't have ever been allowed to be here. (a)

Edit - Killaho, he did something and said something wrong, even his own religion is condemning him here for what he said, right now, a greater majority of muslims want nothing to do with him at all.

[murda inc]

I hear what you're saying Killaho. I've heard the same arguments from men who were not Muslims back home in the US before. I think they're going a bit overboard on the whole deportation issue. I don't agree with his point of view, but does what he said really justify deportation? In my book, it does not!Im my opinion it does justify deportation for the simple reason that he is listened to and followed by thousands of muslums in this country,And if muslums ever want to get the respect or acceptence of the wider population they have to really work on who they have as the leaders....

And in re to the free speach issue well that is becoming non existent for people to say anything negitive against muslums without being called a racist,yet when somthing is annoying them they feel they have the right to say w/e the fuck they want..

the riots over a year ago where based on a lifesaver being assulted,but from a lot that i have spoken to they are sick of being treated like shit from the lebs and turks,so therefore they wanted to demonstrate that rage,but you know aussie`s,get some piss in them and they want to brawl lol

But hey untill muslums controll our parlament or senate to change laws,
they can either accept how we live and our laws
or we can show them the ocian

[Jimmy James]

[...]And in re to the free speach issue well that is becoming non existent for people to say anything negitive against muslums without being called a racist,yet when somthing is annoying them they feel they have the right to say w/e the fuck they want[...]

I don't understand how fear of being labeled a racist is any different then what this guy said. I'm sure someone speaking up against muslims couldn't possibly cause such an international outrage. the only difference is he doesn't care what people think.