Pedophiles and the FCC

[Beli]

This subject of interest was brought to my attention. Have you ever noticed how strict the FCC (Federal Communications Commission) is about certain curse words and nudity? The Janet Jackson incident comes to mind. And anyone who has listened to Howard Stern for any length of time knows all about how strict the FCC is. Certain words and action are just NOT tolerated at all! Even the big ones like NBC, CBS, FOX, and so on do not cross the boundaries.
However, it is also a law that people may not sexually molest, rape or abuse children. But it happens every single day. These pedophiles are not punished nearly as severely as a someone who say the F word on television. So I ask you two questions:
1. Should the FCC take over punishing pedophiles?
2. What the hell is wrong with our society that punishes more for showing a breast, than for ruining a child’s life? And or killing a child?

those of you not in the USA, please feel free to ask for further details if you somehow missed hearing about the Janet Jackson incident.

[the squid of despair]

Actually I have never seen a person go to jail for many years for saying fuck on TV. As far as I'm concerned the FCC is not harder on video/tv violations than they are of child molestors.

[Beli]

Actually I have never seen a person go to jail for many years for saying fuck on TV. As far as I'm concerned the FCC is not harder on video/tv violations than they are of child molestors.
you totally missed the point :( what i am trying to get across is that you are not allowed to say the f word on TV and if you do you are severely fined/punished. you are also not allowed to molest children, and yet people do it and not much happens to them. one such case is:
a man repeatedly raped a 12 y/o boy. he was caught and plead guilty yet served no jail time. because the judge felt sorry for the man because he had a drinking problem. so the judge had the guy go through rehab. if the guy had said "fuck" he would have been fined say $300,000-not a real figure just used as an example

[the squid of despair]

Maybe I haven't seen enough cases on both sides. I've never researched the FCC/Child molestor prosecution ratio. I'm pretty darn sure that childmolestors get the short end of the stick in the long run...

[Jimmy James]

I just did some searching and what I found was that the penalty for saying fuck on TV is $32,000 for each incedent. and if the meaning of the word is not used to discribe a sexual excretory act, then there is no penalty (i.e. Bono saying Fuck during the 2003 Golden Globe Awards)

As a threshold matter, the material aired during the "Golden Globe Awards" program does not describe or depict sexual and excretory activities and organs. The word "fucking" may be crude and offensive, but, in the context presented here, did not describe sexual or excretory organs or activities. Rather, the performer used the word "fucking" as an adjective or expletive to emphasize an exclamation. Indeed, in similar circumstances, we have found that offensive language used as an insult rather than as a description of sexual or excretory activity or organs is not within the scope of the Commission's prohibition of indecent program content.

but the penalty for child molestation is defined on a state by state basis, and from what I've found through searching, the most leinient is Colorodo which states that sexual abuse of a clild under the age of 15 is a class 4 felony punishable by 2 to six years in prison, unless the rapist is a "person of trust", then it's a class 3 felony punishable by 4 to 12 years in prison.

the strictest I've found is Louisiana which has the death penalty for aggrivated rape of a victim under the age of 12, and Florida and Montana have the death penalty for capital sexual assault.

[Beli]

my point IS!!! society seems to put more value on having "clean" tv rather that on protecting our children. case in point following story:
A Columbus, Ohio, man charged with repeatedly raping two young boys is in the Tri-state for treatment.

Parents and victims' groups are outraged because Andrew Selva didn't get any prison time.

Selva is at the Pogue Rehabilitation Center on McMicken Avenue in Cincinnati.

He pleaded guilty to sexual battery in a deal that was designed to spare the victims, two boys ages five and twelve, a trial.

Instead of jail time, Franklin County Judge John Conner gave Selva five years probation.

Some protestors are calling for Judge John Conner to step down.

"My children are no longer able to do the little things that they were allowed to do walk the dog ride their bike around the block," said one protestor.

"It was very upsetting it's upsetting that he let the people down the children the victims, especially."

Now, Attorney General Jim Petro says Judge Conner should step down.

"A helpless child being subjected to that type of abuse is overwhelmingly outrageous," said Petro.

Conner has four years left as an elected judge he says he has made more than 22,000 decisions in his 14 years on the bench and that he is one of the least reversed judges on his court.

"I have a lot of sex offenders who are in prison I do not have a reputation for allowing sex offenders to walk the street," said Judge Conner.

He says if Judge Conner doesn't step down, he will encourage the Ohio House to initiate impeachment proceedings.

"Everything I did was within the law, it's just that they would rather I send him to prison than give him treatment and they're going to impeach me for that? I think that's dangerous," said Judge Conner."

And as of June 7th 2006 the FCC fines went up to $325,000 while the above child rapist got probation.

[Jimmy James]

all these people call for the judge to step down is an outrage, the prosecuter should be fired, he made the deal, not the judge.

here is the law in ohio (I removed parts that don't apply)...

§ 2907.02. Rape.

(A) (1) No person shall engage in sexual conduct with another who is not the spouse of the offender or who is the spouse of the offender but is living separate and apart from the offender, when any of the following applies:

...

(b) The other person is less than thirteen years of age, whether or not the offender knows the age of the other person.

...

(B) Whoever violates this section is guilty of rape, a felony of the first degree. If the offender under division (A)(1)(a) of this section substantially impairs the other person's judgment or control by administering any controlled substance described in section 3719.41 of the Revised Code to the other person surreptitiously or by force, threat of force, or deception, the prison term imposed upon the offender shall be one of the prison terms prescribed for a felony of the first degree in section 2929.14 of the Revised Code that is not less than five years. If the offender under division (A)(1)(b) of this section purposely compels the victim to submit by force or threat of force or if the victim under division (A)(1)(b) of this section is less than ten years of age, whoever violates division (A)(1)(b) of this section shall be imprisoned for life. If the offender under division (A)(1)(b) of this section previously has been convicted of or pleaded guilty to violating division (A)(1)(b) of this section or to violating a law of another state or the United States that is substantially similar to division (A)(1)(b) of this section or if the offender during or immediately after the commission of the offense caused serious physical harm to the victim, whoever violates division (A)(1)(b) of this section shall be imprisoned for life or life without parole.

the prosecutor reduced the crime to sexual battery which is a class 4 felony punishable by 6-18 months in jail, the judge couldn't not have have sentenced him to anything more then that, and he could possibly have had plenty of time served awaiting trial to make it so the judge couldn't sentence him to any more time in jail.

source: Anderson's Ohio Online Documentation (http://onlinedocs.andersonpublishing.com)

[Furyous]

Here's a solution for ya Beli. Talk them into giving me a gun and an address. I'll take care of the rest. ;)

Seriously though, I think they ought to reinstate some form of martial law in cases such as these. Let the community decide how they're going to handle these pricks.

I have a friend who's kid was molested by the Sherriff in their town. There's only one sherriff, and he's absolutely above the law. As a matter of fact, he IS the law. My friend tried to get something done, as his son was not the only one this prick F'd up. In Idaho, in small little towns like that though, it can be pretty tough, and they got nowhere. My friend told me that if I ever hear that the sherriff in his particular town got it in the middle of the night, I'd know who did it. I'd also never open my mouth about our conversation again...

Anyway, that's how I feel about it all. Arm the families, and let them sort it out. I guarantee you one thing. Anyone caught doing anything with a child of my friends/family wouldn't ever do it again!

[Beli]

Here's a solution for ya Beli. Talk them into giving me a gun and an address. I'll take care of the rest. ;)

Seriously though, I think they ought to reinstate some form of martial law in cases such as these. Let the community decide how they're going to handle these pricks.

I have a friend who's kid was molested by the Sherriff in their town. There's only one sherriff, and he's absolutely above the law. As a matter of fact, he IS the law. My friend tried to get something done, as his son was not the only one this prick F'd up. In Idaho, in small little towns like that though, it can be pretty tough, and they got nowhere. My friend told me that if I ever hear that the sherriff in his particular town got it in the middle of the night, I'd know who did it. I'd also never open my mouth about our conversation again...

Anyway, that's how I feel about it all. Arm the families, and let them sort it out. I guarantee you one thing. Anyone caught doing anything with a child of my friends/family wouldn't ever do it again!
hurray!!! someone understood what i was going on about!
i seriously think that a few public beheadings (j/k well kind of) would make some of these sickos think twice before touching a child. or just do what Ellie Nesler did and shoot the SOB!
sad about your friend though Furyous. hope that there is justice some day

[Furyous]

hurray!!! someone understood what i was going on about!
i seriously think that a few public beheadings (j/k well kind of) would make some of these sickos think twice before touching a child. or just do what Ellie Nesler did and shoot the SOB!
sad about your friend though Furyous. hope that there is justice some day

Hey, beheadings seem to work for the Muslims! There's not many pedophiles walking around Saudi Arabia! If someone touched my kid, I'd have a hard time staying out of prison. I'd probably end up killing the person.

There's very little hope for my friends kid, the crime was committed about 10 yrs ago. The good thing is that he came up in a good family, and he's gone on to join the Army, and really made something of himself. The only thing is, many people who are molested as children go on to be molesters themselves. Molestation seriously messes people up. It is one of the last crimes in America that we seem not to take seriously enough. Doing this to a child, in my mind is tantamount to murder. This child has to live with that memory for the rest of their life. I think Mo's should just be taken out back and shot...

So there you have it, my two cents.... Nuff said....

[tca]

Some murders aren't even that bad, Pedophiles should be kill, plain and simply, if i had a dollar for everytime this discussion was had, i'd be a millionaire.

Someone who is fucked up enough to molest children children obviously is imbalanced and doesn't deserve to live.

Beli i understand where you are going with it all, the justice system here is a laugh too, you can murder someone and escape jail if you're good enough.

The world is a pathetic place when it comes to the justice system, honestly.

[the squid of despair]

This is just silly. Sure kill em all I really don't care. Comparing it to the FCC is a horrible comparison though. I highly doubt America has a more linient stance of child molestation than what's on TV.

[Beli]

This is just silly. Sure kill em all I really don't care. Comparing it to the FCC is a horrible comparison though. I highly doubt America has a more linient stance of child molestation than what's on TV.
are you just trying to be dense? let me spell it out for you very, very slowly.
how many times to you hear "fuck" on the television? not cable
never. people know the fines and do not risk crossing the line.
now how many children are molested every day? lots and lots.
now are you starting to understand???
i am pointing out that people know the punishment for molesting a child and yet they continue to cross the line.
with the FCC, it isn't how much the fine is. it isn't so much the leniency issue either. it the point that people seem to fear the FCC more than they fear the justice system. they won't say Fuck on TV, but they will go out and molest a child.
now you can put whatever you want in place of the FCC. that was just an example. and you can pull it apart even further and say "well cursing on TV is a public crime" THAT was not the fucking point i was trying to make!!

[Quaker]

Hey, beheadings seem to work for the Muslims! There's not many pedophiles walking around Saudi Arabia! If someone touched my kid, I'd have a hard time staying out of prison. I'd probably end up killing the person.

There's very little hope for my friends kid, the crime was committed about 10 yrs ago. The good thing is that he came up in a good family, and he's gone on to join the Army, and really made something of himself. The only thing is, many people who are molested as children go on to be molesters themselves. Molestation seriously messes people up. It is one of the last crimes in America that we seem not to take seriously enough. Doing this to a child, in my mind is tantamount to murder. This child has to live with that memory for the rest of their life. I think Mo's should just be taken out back and shot...


So lets assume as you've stated that people who have been molested go on to become molesters themselves. Wouldn't it be better to then TREAT those people isntead of killing them? since it wasn't technically 100% their fault... so to speak.

Should your friends son just be killed now to spare the next generation of kids?

EDIT TO ADD:

Anyway, that's how I feel about it all. Arm the families, and let them sort it out. I guarantee you one thing. Anyone caught doing anything with a child of my friends/family wouldn't ever do it again! Ya huh... and the problem with that is this: a 29-year-old attorney from Fairfield, is charged with killing Barry James on Aug. 28 after his wife told him their daughter had indicated James touched her inappropriately "in the starry night," police said. (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,222477,00.html)

[Furyous]

Quaker, please don't twist my words to suit your political views. I never said all people who are molested go on to commit the crime themselves. Feel free to go back and read what I posted a little more carefully. I think you'll find that I never stated what you claimed I did. Besides, child molesters are some of the worst criminals out there. Not all people who are molested repeat the crime, but most molesters were molested as children. So, no, my friends kid should not be killed.

I understand that people aren't always guilty of crimes they're accused of, and it's a terrible thing when they suffer for something they didn't do. I also never asked to be armed and sent out as a lynch mob the day of the supposed crime to go take care of things. A lot of silly assumptions were made on your part regarding my post.

Do you honestly believe that counseling helps these people? Let me tell you one thing that I KNOW about counseling. I've been in couseling for depression before, and my sister is a licensed Marriage and Family Therapist. COUNSELING ONLY WORKS WHEN THE PERSON BEING TREATED IS OPEN TO CHANGE!!!!!! Stop with the treatment bullshit already. I hate that argument. I hear it way too often.

Now, if you can prove to me that there is a treatment program out there that has a 100% success rate, I'll sign on to your idea. Until then, we lock 'em up an throw away the keys.

[Antoper]

bring back the guillotine, its humane and effective

[Quaker]

Quaker, please don't twist my words to suit your political views. Killaho where are you with that OFF TOPIC rant of yours? Who said ANYTHING about politics? sheez people quit being on the defensive all the time. I never said all people who are molested go on to commit the crime themselves. Feel free to go back and read what I posted a little more carefully. I think you'll find that I never stated what you claimed I did. Besides, child molesters are some of the worst criminals out there. Not all people who are molested repeat the crime, but most molesters were molested as children. Sorry, I never thought you meant ALL molesters, bud didn't see any point in throwing a fit over that aspect of your claim since it still doesn't make a difference to the point i raised. So, no, my friends kid should not be killed. But IF he goes on to become a molester then he should be killed?

I understand that people aren't always guilty of crimes they're accused of, and it's a terrible thing when they suffer for something they didn't do. I also never asked to be armed and sent out as a lynch mob the day of the supposed crime to go take care of things. A lot of silly assumptions were made on your part regarding my post. assumption? hmmm well lets see you stated "Arm the families, and let them sort it out." and in the article that i posted thats the exact thing that happened and we see the results. Please quit trying side peddle the issue. When people are thinking on rage they DON'T think plain and simple. Asking for justice to be served based on rage is plain STUPID. End of argument.
Now, if you can prove to me that there is a treatment program out there that has a 100% success rate, I'll sign on to your idea. Until then, we lock 'em up an throw away the keys. LOL, I doubt there is ANY treatment for ANY program that has a 100% success rate 100% of the time. It doesn't mean its not a viable option just because it doesn't always work.

So once again let me pose the question of your sons friend to you. He was molested. Now lets say he DOES go on to become a child molester (Just to clear up any possible confusion... I am NOT implying that because he was molested he will become a molester) then should he be "locked up" and/or killed for something that wasn't entirely his fault to begin with? Or should he be helped to work through whatever the hell is going on?

[Colonel Sanders]

If a person that was molested when he was a child grows up to be a child molester himself then he is weak.

It's almost like saying if somebody stole my car, I'm going to go out and steal someone else's. It's not the same on an emotional level of course but you can deal with it. And people get through childhood rape all the time, either just from will-power or from counseling; still good for them if they can get through it.

If they cannot and they let their minds get so twisted that they themselves go and rape children in large part to their own experience then yes I would say lock them up too, kill them, whatever punishment is thrown out, it's still up to them to do it and them only.

I for one do not believe counseling works for these rapists and/or child molesters. Many of the experts already say it doesn't. If it were up to me the sentence for that type of crime would be immediate execution; and from seeing other peoples comments on this forum I believe the majority feel the same.

Getting back to the original topic however, I would agree that the United States and alot of other countries do not take enough harsh action and punishment for child molesters and rapists. 8 years is not enough, nor is 20 or 50. Life in prison would be fine for me.

But I ask you this, why waste our prison room to house child molesters and rapists when the experts and vast majority of common folk believe they have no chance of rehabilitation? Seems illogical to me. Kill them

[Beli]

i watched an interview with a self confessed child molestor. he claimed that he would never be 100% safe around children. he had moved to an adult only apartment complex that was away from schools and day cares. according to this man, there is no such thing as a reformed child molestor.
so what should be done with them when they are released from prison? should they have some regulations set on them? should they wear ankle monitors that would send off a signal if they got to close to schools?
in California there is a law that sex offenders cannot live within so many feet of a school. however, there is no law that allows law enforcement to uphold this. and if you are renting your house out, you can't descriminate against sex offenders. even if you are and apartment complex manager, you are not allowed to tell the other tenants that a sex offender is living there.

[Rex Mundi]

Chemical castration is another option...

[Quaker]

First off, welcome back Kaf.... i know you've been back for a bit (and may have never left) but I missed ya :).

If a person that was molested when he was a child grows up to be a child molester himself then he is weak. LOL (not agreeing with you) but lets say your above statment is true. Does a person deserve to die for being "weak" or get help so their not "weak"?

It's almost like saying if somebody stole my car, I'm going to go out and steal someone else's. It's not the same on an emotional level of course but you can deal with it. Again LOL if its not on the same emotional level then why would you use it as your analogy?

Lets say you were raped and because of that you carried a gun with you everywhere.... one day my poor ass come walking along to ask you for some change and you blow my head off cause your so fucking paranoided.

Now since you were "weak" and couldn't just "deal with it" should you be killed? Sent to jail forever? or should you be punished AND helped?

And just as a side note... I think people are mixing up pedophiles and child molesters meaning people that molest due to a traumatic childhood expeirence and people are are "born that way" so to speak.

And people get through childhood rape all the time, And by the same token people DON'T get through childhood rape all the time. either just from will-power or from counseling; still good for them if they can get through it. And what about the people who can't or aren't able to get treatment for any number of reasons... Can't afford it or more likely no scared to come out? Then should those people go on to become molesters shouldn't they be offered that same counseling which you mentioned above can work?

If they cannot and they let their minds get so twisted that they themselves go and rape children in large part to their own experience then yes I would say lock them up too, kill them, whatever punishment is thrown out, it's still up to them to do it and them only. LOL again you people are quite amusing.... this reminds me alot of the "uncovered meat" thread. You guys jump all over a guy that says "women bring rape onto themselves" yet are all up for killing people who have been raped and because of that expeirence go on to commit crimes.

Am i saying let child molesters roam free? Not at all.... throw em in jail and treat em while their there. **** again this does not apply to pedophiles moreso people who were traumatized as kids etc...****

But I ask you this, why waste our prison room to house child molesters and rapists when the experts and vast majority of common folk believe they have no chance of rehabilitation? Seems illogical to me. Kill them Not gonna reply to this part in this thread since were heading into the topic of the death penalty....

[the squid of despair]

you are not allowed to tell the other tenants that a sex offender is living there.


Since when? As far as I know violent sex offenders are required to go around the neibhorhood and announce their presence. Flyers are ofter passed out as well. I have a violent sex offender directly accross the street from me. People have the right to know where they are and the apartment manager would be obligated to inform all tenants, if not legaly than moraly.

Here's what this kind gentleman did.

261(2) RAPE BY FORCE
286(c) SODOMY WITH PERSON UNDER 14 YEARS OR WITH FORCE
289(a) PRIOR CODE-SEXUAL PENETRATION WITH FOREIGN OBJECT BY FORCE

He's the 11th one down on the list. BURGOS,DAVID GILBERT.

http://www.meganslaw.ca.gov/cgi/prosoma.dll?searchby=ZipList&ZipCode2=92105&SB=0&PageNo=1

http://img131.imageshack.us/img131/3937/rapistae3.png

This is a map of where he lives. The dot in the middle of the red box is where his house is. I didn't think this person should live in an area, so close to schools and communities. I contacted the city and they bascally said, tough shit. There is nothing that can be done once these people are released unless it is in their release agreement. They are free to live anywhere they choose.

[Beli]

i don't know since when. but it is under the discrimination law. the apartment owner and/or manager can not tell anyone that they have a sex offender in the building.

[Quaker]

Since when? As far as I know violent sex offenders are required to go around the neibhorhood and announce their presence. Flyers are ofter passed out as well. I have a violent sex offender directly accross the street from me. People have the right to know where they are and the apartment manager would be obligated to inform all tenants, if not legaly than moraly.

It differs from state to state. A few states still do not have a online list for people to look up. Beli was talking about CA in particular.

http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=NDA5YjFmODJkY2ExNDIwNWYyY2U2NjRjZmFiMTZmOTA=

[Beli]

It differs from state to state. A few states still do not have a online list for people to look up. Beli was talking about CA in particular.

http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=NDA5YjFmODJkY2ExNDIwNWYyY2U2NjRjZmFiMTZmOTA=

he should know he lives in CA also.

[Colonel Sanders]

LOL (not agreeing with you) but lets say your above statement is true. Does a person deserve to die for being "weak" or get help so their not "weak"?

Well that is an interesting debate. If these people that grow up to be molesters because of their own trauma when they were young, are they the same as the original? Are they as sick and twisted and have no hope of rehabilitation as the others? I do not know, I am guessing probably not and they can be helped. But then again once you have crossed that line and rape everything changes, I simply don't know.

Lets say you were raped and because of that you carried a gun with you everywhere.... one day my poor ass come walking along to ask you for some change and you blow my head off cause your so fucking paranoid.

I've been fucking paranoid since I was 12. It gives me strength and also helps me avoid things normal people would not see coming. I think you getting your head blown off from a person who got raped just cause you walked up and asked for change is a little far fetched and serves no purpose in the statement your trying to argue.

Now since you were "weak" and couldn't just "deal with it" should you be killed? Sent to jail forever? or should you be punished AND helped?

Read what I first said.

And by the same token people DON'T get through childhood rape all the time.

And by the same token people DO yes?. Which is what I said. Maybe half of them who get through it are strong, and other half who do not are weak OR simply never got the help and support they needed. Again read what I said first.

And what about the people who can't or aren't able to get treatment for any number of reasons... Can't afford it or more likely no scared to come out? Then should those people go on to become molesters shouldn't they be offered that same counseling which you mentioned above can work?

Of course they should, I never argued that point. That is the fucked up system failing people like it always does. And IF they are "too scared" to come forward for whatever reason that either means A) they are dealing with it on their own just fine and will continue to live normally or B) They are too weak to deal with their feelings. What I mean by that is that they most likely were a carebear all of their life before they had something traumatic done to them they had to deal with; these prissy little daddies girls that had everything given to them, never cared about the outside worlds troubles, never shed a tear over someone elses misery because they have never known different in their lives. that can be the same for anything traumatic and not just rape.

LOL again you people are quite amusing.... this reminds me allot of the "uncovered meat" thread. You guys jump all over a guy that says "women bring rape onto themselves" yet are all up for killing people who have been raped and because of that experience go on to commit crimes.

Maybe thats because most of the world has a 0 tolerance policy on rapists and molesters? If it were possible for the United States to vote on the death penalty for rapists and child molesters tomorrow I guarantee it would pass, thats simply how the majority of society feels about it. And once again that is not to say that the ones that rape because they themselves have been raped deserved the same fate, once again see my first statement, interesting debate/theory. I would be interested to see what the professionals say about that.

[the squid of despair]

So according to you KAF there are 2 kinds of kids, weak and not weak? I find it interesting that you think a 5 year old is weak, because they can't work through being raped or molested...

[Jimmy James]

Maybe thats because most of the world has a 0 tolerance policy on rapists and molesters? If it were possible for the United States to vote on the death penalty for rapists and child molesters tomorrow I guarantee it would pass, thats simply how the majority of society feels about it. And once again that is not to say that the ones that rape because they themselves have been raped deserved the same fate, once again see my first statement, interesting debate/theory. I would be interested to see what the professionals say about that.
the US doesn't decide what the penalty is for these crimes, the states do on their own, and as I posted earlier in thi thread, 3 states already have capital punishment for rape/sexual battery, and most have life imprisonment for sexual assault on a child. the problem is the prosecutors give them deals that reduce the crime, thuse reducing the penalty, so they make sure they get a guilty verdict. currently there's only 1 person on death row for rape, that's a problem with the court system, not the laws.

[Colonel Sanders]

So according to you KAF there are 2 kinds of kids, weak and not weak? I find it interesting that you think a 5 year old is weak, because they can't work through being raped or molested...

Yes because I was talking about 5 year olds right? no. I was talking when they grow up to be child molesters. Which then they would be what 20-50, old enough and would be adults.

If they had not dealt with thier problems by then. then I would say they are weak and need help. Thats all I was saying.

Oh and Tyler, I was speaking as in people taking votes. As in if civilians had been given a chance to vote on always giving the death penalty to rapists and child molesters/

[gotalot2do]

I just did some searching and what I found was that the penalty for saying fuck on TV is $32,000 for each incedent. and if the meaning of the word is not used to discribe a sexual excretory act, then there is no penalty (i.e. Bono saying Fuck during the 2003 Golden Globe Awards)



but the penalty for child molestation is defined on a state by state basis, and from what I've found through searching, the most leinient is Colorodo which states that sexual abuse of a clild under the age of 15 is a class 4 felony punishable by 2 to six years in prison, unless the rapist is a "person of trust", then it's a class 3 felony punishable by 4 to 12 years in prison.

the strictest I've found is Louisiana which has the death penalty for aggrivated rape of a victim under the age of 12, and Florida and Montana have the death penalty for capital sexual assault.


Way to go Louisiana, Florida, and Montanna!

[Kat]

Has anyone seen the Brass Eye episode about Paedolphiles? I think you should all go and watch it - it's very very funny and I think there'd probably be some extreme reactions to it from posters here which would be interesting.

Edit, having just read most of the thread: I disagree with almost everything most people have said; I agree with almost everything that Quaker has said apart from:
1. You say somewhere that people should be 'helped and punished'; I don't think they should be punished. It doesn't help anyone; it completely unproductive. What's done to people who break the law should be based on 2 things: what's best for them and what's best for other people. There should be an effort to balance these 2 (often conflicting) objectives. There is no need for the concept of punishment to enter into the criminal justice system; the concepts of prevention and rehabilitation are adequate.
2. You want to make a distinction between people who molest because of what has happened to them and people who were born that way. This seems to presume that some people are born evil. I don't believe that people are born evil; I can't prove that or argue it, but it's a fundamental belief that I think society needs to base itself on in order to be civilised.

[Beli]

ok i just must ask this of all former posters in this thread: are any of you experts? i mean have you worked with pedophiles? children who have been molested? or even law enforcement?
i am just wondering not trying to attack you all so don't get offended! trying to figure out where some of your opions come from.
and to answer my own question, yes. i work with pedophiles, thier victimns, and law enforcement.

[Quaker]

Well that is an interesting debate. If these people that grow up to be molesters because of their own trauma when they were young, are they the same as the original? Are they as sick and twisted and have no hope of rehabilitation as the others? I do not know, I am guessing probably not and they can be helped. But then again once you have crossed that line and rape everything changes, I simply don't know. What specifically changes? I am assuming you mean "being treated" for your issues... If that is what you mean then I must ask why? wouldn't a rape just be the big HELP ME sign that should have been sent out way way sooner and just never was?

I think you getting your head blown off from a person who got raped just cause you walked up and asked for change is a little far fetched and serves no purpose in the statement your trying to argue. Far-fetched? aren't there dozens of cases every year of people getting accidently shot by somoene thinking they were a robber or any such thing?

Would you in a case like the above recommend the person be "killed" or instead given "help" to cope with such irrational fears?

And by the same token people DO yes?. Which is what I said. Maybe half of them who get through it are strong, and other half who do not are weak OR simply never got the help and support they needed. Again read what I said first. Does it really matter why? as long as people can get through it then why not give the support to those need it when we discover it?

Of course they should, I never argued that point. ummmm actually you said I would say lock them up too, kill them, whatever punishment is thrown out

That is the fucked up system failing people like it always does. Not sure if you get it or not, but advocating that people just be killed for something isn't exactly "fixing" the fucked up system. And IF they are "too scared" to come forward for whatever reason that either means A) they are dealing with it on their own just fine and will continue to live normally or B) They are too weak to deal with their feelings. weak? so if a person was say raped by their teacher and was too scared to come out about it then they would be weak? Or how about if a person was raped by the local priest, who is a VERY well respected man, and the person is too scared to come out then are they "weak"?What I mean by that is that they most likely were a carebear all of their life before they had something traumatic done to them they had to deal with; these prissy little daddies girls that had everything given to them, never cared about the outside worlds troubles, never shed a tear over someone elses misery because they have never known different in their lives. that can be the same for anything traumatic and not just rape. WHAT? are you fucking joking me? KAF get real already.

So your pretty much saying "so sad, you should have dealth with it and now that you can't were going to kill you?"

Maybe thats because most of the world has a 0 tolerance policy on rapists and molesters? If it were possible for the United States to vote on the death penalty for rapists and child molesters tomorrow I guarantee it would pass, thats simply how the majority of society feels about it. And I am assuming you'd be proud of the fact that you'd be killing a group of people that were never given the chance or help they should have been given? Sad....

You speak of having a zero tolerance policy... when is it time to realize that this so called "zero tolerance" policy isn't working and something needs to be changed?

[Beli]

quaker i really can't follow all that. can you give me the simple version?

[Beli]

Not offended, but when people start throwing out questions like that its just lame....

Here lets spin it around....

Unless anyone in here is actually a pedophile or rapist then your opinion amounts to nothing and you need to shut up!

Oh and just to answer my questions no I am not a pedophile or a rapist.

No offense of course :)

PS.

Beli have you ever abused animals? Don't knock it till you try it ;)
lmfao!! so you don't know shit and are just in here spouting off about something you really know nothing about. spend some time with the victimns and the offenders and then what you say may carry some validity.

[Quaker]

lmfao!! so you don't know shit and are just in here spouting off about something you really know nothing about. spend some time with the victimns and the offends and then what you say may carry some validity.

LMAO see beli your really not that slow and i didn't need to delete my post.... CONGRATS for finally getting it now please go and re:read it a few times ;)

So belie which are you a rapist or a pedophile?

[Quaker]

1. You say somewhere that people should be 'helped and punished'; I don't think they should be punished. It doesn't help anyone; it completely unproductive. What's done to people who break the law should be based on 2 things: what's best for them and what's best for other people. There should be an effort to balance these 2 (often conflicting) objectives. There is no need for the concept of punishment to enter into the criminal justice system; the concepts of prevention and rehabilitation are adequate. I think for the sake of the victims some sort of punishment would need to be dealt out. Not saying that it would change the end result of the REAL problem, but I think giving people the satisfaction that something was done would be needed.

Remember there are still people out there that have no faith in counseling to start with (ie half the people in this thread) so just telling them "we fixed him" would do nothing.

So in essence im saying just to appease everyone i'd say punish and treat them.
2. You want to make a distinction between people who molest because of what has happened to them and people who were born that way. This seems to presume that some people are born evil. I don't believe that people are born evil; I can't prove that or argue it, but it's a fundamental belief that I think society needs to base itself on in order to be civilised. I don't think their born evil more so born with a certain desire which then equals pedophilia.... and as far as I know/have heard its technically untreatable, but I am assuming you could treat with some sort of behavior modification a persons urges to do things.

[Colonel Sanders]

Quaker, I never advocated "my Nazi 0 tolerance policy" here as you so majestically said so in the past, I said whatever punishment which is carried out by the law. Jail time, jail time+psychiatric help or whatever is carried out. I did mention killed yes but that punishment isn't for your normal rapist or child molester, more like rape+murder, or similar to a serial killer.

My own personal feelings about these people are irrelevant because I was arguing a different point; I am sure you would love for me to say that I would go around with a mini-gun killing every potential rapist I see but you aren't getting that.

So obviously a person is not born a rapist or child molester. Most think it is due to some childhood trauma, the way the child was raised. Domestic violence. Peer pressure situations that are complicated and many more things. It's psychological and can be traced back to an early age. Which means like many psychological things it can be treated.

HOWEVER does that mean it can be eradicated from ones mind? Can they truly ever be better to not rape again? A rehabilitated rapist or child molester occasionally thinking about his past deeds, but controlling it is another thing, actually doing it again is something else. If the professionals don't think it's possible... well what do we do then? I think the majority of society already made that choice even if they can be treated or not, simply because rape is one of the most disgusting and intolerable things in this world.

[Quaker]

Quaker, I never advocated "my Nazi 0 tolerance policy" here as you so majestically said so in the past, I said whatever punishment which is carried out by the law. Jail time, jail time+psychiatric help or whatever is carried out. I did mention killed yes but that punishment isn't for your normal rapist or child molester, more like rape+murder, or similar to a serial killer.

My own personal feelings about these people are irrelevant because I was arguing a different point; I am sure you would love for me to say that I would go around with a mini-gun killing every potential rapist I see but you aren't getting that.

So obviously a person is not born a rapist or child molester. Most think it is due to some childhood trauma, the way the child was raised. Domestic violence. Peer pressure situations that are complicated and many more things. It's psychological and can be traced back to an early age. Which means like many psychological things it can be treated.

HOWEVER does that mean it can be eradicated from ones mind? Can they truly ever be better to not rape again? A rehabilitated rapist or child molester occasionally thinking about his past deeds, but controlling it is another thing, actually doing it again is something else. If the professionals don't think it's possible... well what do we do then? I think the majority of society already made that choice even if they can be treated or not, simply because rape is one of the most disgusting and intolerable things in this world. Don't necessarily agree with everything you've posted, but don't disagree enough to pick at anything so lets end (for now) this first ever REAL chat we've had (Y)

[the squid of despair]

lmfao!! so you don't know shit and are just in here spouting off about something you really know nothing about. spend some time with the victimns and the offenders and then what you say may carry some validity.

I thought you weren't trying to attack us...

Funny how that one bit us in the ass. Every one quit posting in this thread, unless you have experience in the field, yes you too Quaker...

[Quaker]

I thought you weren't trying to attack us...

Funny how that one bit us in the ass. Every one quit posting in this thread, unless you have experience in the field, yes you too Quaker...
**** POST DOESN'T EXIST****
Well I technically do.... just didn't mention it since it wouldn't matter either way.

And your right i haven't raped anyone so I can't post... Killaho please remind me if I forgot next time to have a big disclamier in the next war related thread stating only people who have been in the FRONT LINES of a war are allowed to post :) TIA

[Beli]

i am just wondering how you all seem to be to expert on if offenders should die of not. can they be rehabed? and so on. how do you base your views? all that i was after. but quaker you seem to have a serious problem. you don't seem to express your views without just picking apart what others say. so let me ask you directly. what do you, quaker, think should be done to pedophiles? and keep it simple for me

[Quaker]

i am just wondering how you all seem to be to expert on if offenders should die of not. can they be rehabed? and so on. how do you base your views? all that i was after. but quaker you seem to have a serious problem. you don't seem to express your views without just picking apart what others say. Eh... it's just a habit picked up from posting on other politics related forums... nothing personal. And you still understand my point of view so its not a problem.
so let me ask you directly. what do you, quaker, think should be done to pedophiles? and keep it simple for me Thats a hard one only because from my understanding there is no real "cure" so to speak. If they come out as a pedophile then simple keep them away from kids (understandably not so simple) and get them involved with some type of behavior modification treatment to help suppress the urge for little kiddies...

What do you think should be done with alcoholics that have somehow put others lives in danger?

[tca]

**** POST DOESN'T EXIST****
Well I technically do.... just didn't mention it since it wouldn't matter either way.

And your right i haven't raped anyone so I can't post... Killaho please remind me if I forgot next time to have a big disclamier in the next war related thread stating only people who have been in the FRONT LINES of a war are allowed to post :) TIA

Cue pittman :P

[Furyous]

Good debate....

To answer your question Beli, I've worked with Law Enforcement, Doctors, and Victims... I used to work in an E.R. in the States. My sister is also a Marriage and Family Therapist.

First off, I agree that the victims of the crime need to get help. Again, the problem as I stated earlier is, if they are not willing to seek the help, or deal with the issues at hand, your not going to get anywhere as far as helping these victims. As far as the people who commit the crimes goes, in my book, they're done for. How many repeat rapes is too many. In my book, it's ONE! I don't know how many of you have worked with victims of these crimes, but it's terrible, as I'm sure Beli can tell you as well. The tests done at the hospital are enough to mess a young child up, added to the trauma they've already been through, it's a terrible thing. Those tests are done to ensure that the crime was actually committed. Once they've got the evidence needed, they take the appropriate steps to deal with the criminal, and use that evidence against them....

Is anyone here a therapist, or have you been in any therapy yourselves? I have had experience. I had one counselor who I really connected with and he changed my life. The thing is, I was at a point where I had no where left to turn, and I needed to change. I chose to seek out the help, and that's why it worked. Had I been forced to see the counselor, it NEVER would have worked. NO ONE can make another person CHANGE! That is an individual CHOICE, and for the people who are not willing to make that choice in time to keep themselves from doing something terribly wrong to another person, we have laws set up to keep them from doing it again. I feel no sympathy for a human being who felt no sympathy for his victims.

As for my previous statement about giving me a gun and letting me hunt them down, I was about half serious there. If given the opportunity, chances are I wouldn't do it, even if I would be above the law. The justice system is more than capable of taking care of these people, and are better equipped to handle such things. The one problem with the justice system, as far as I'm concerned is that they're not throwing ENOUGH books at these violent criminals. I say lock 'em up, throw away the key, and if what they've done is really bad, fry 'em. Just imagine how you'd feel if they had committed this crime on your sibling, or even yourself. Would you HONESTLY beg the judge for mercy, and to let this guy out with supervised couseling? If so, I don't want to live anywhere near you... Seriously though, it's not an option I'd like to see handed out to the violent sex crime offenders in my city. Try it in yours first, if it works, let me know. I might consider it, maybe.....

[Davecat]

To bring a little something else into this equation...

documentary on tv that i cant remember the title to...

quick description : Documentary follows Man found guilty or raping his daughter, upon medical investigation it is found that a growth or tumor in his brain is 'proven' to disrupt his ability to control sexual urges.

cue one extremely depressed man who understands what he did was wrong and is stuck with the guilt of it, is unable to do anything about it. Has been through months upon months of therapy to see if his 'condition' can be 'cured' each time he has relapsed.

He so far has not been able to 'safely' rejoin society. He himself cannot state that he thinks he is safe enough to rejoin society. He however only accepts partial responsibility for his actions as the medical profession have indicated that 'influence beyond his control' is at play also.

What do you suggest we do with him ?

[Quaker]

First off, I agree that the victims of the crime need to get help. Again, the problem as I stated earlier is, if they are not willing to seek the help, or deal with the issues at hand, your not going to get anywhere as far as helping these victims. Do a simple google search on recidivism rates for treated sexual offenders vs. untreated sexual offenders. As far as the people who commit the crimes goes, in my book, they're done for. DING DING DING

Can you answer the question beli failed to? What should be done with alcoholics -slash that- What should be done with ANYONE that has been convicted of a DUI? How many repeat rapes is too many. In my book, it's ONE! How many repeat DUI's is enough? or repeat armed robberies? or repeat (insert ANY crime)? I don't know how many of you have worked with victims of these crimes, but it's terrible No one is arguing otherwise Once they've got the evidence needed, they take the appropriate steps to deal with the criminal, and use that evidence against them.... So you call throwing a person in jail and then letting em out 10 years later "dealing with them"? How does that prevent the crime from happening again?

Or wait.... you propose "lockem up and throw away the key".... Can we get real already? Just for simple space reasons that wont fly.

The thing is, I was at a point where I had no where left to turn, and I needed to change. And your saying being in jail, going through a humiliating trial or whatever and having everyone see who you really are isn't rock bottom? You don't think people would be at the stage where they'd be ready to change (not everyone but some)? we have laws set up to keep them from doing it again. And how effective are those laws without treatment? I feel no sympathy for a human being who felt no sympathy for his victims. But you do have sympathy for the victim right? How about sympathy for future victims?

Sad how little we as a society focus on preventative meassures... its ALWAYS about the aftermath... never working to try and prevent something from initially happening.

Just imagine how you'd feel if they had committed this crime on your sibling, or even yourself. Would you HONESTLY beg the judge for mercy, and to let this guy out with supervised couseling? No! Nor have I been advocating for such a thing smart guy ;) Seriously though, it's not an option I'd like to see handed out to the violent sex crime offenders in my city. What? Getting treatment rather than nothing and being let loose 10 years later?

I noticed you didn't answer the question that made this whole thread a bit more personal to you.

IF your friends son went on to become a molester would you still advocate for killing and/or "lock 'em up, throw away the key" punishment knowing full-well that he had some sort of traumatizing childhood expierence that may have somewhat fucked up his judgment so to speak?

[Quaker]

Wow our jails are about to get a hellva lot more crowded. Since we all know the more people we lock up the less crimes will occur... Or even better yet lets kill all criminals since its been proven time and time again that the death penalty actually LOWERS crime rates....

HIP HIP HOORAY!!

[Beli]

Can you answer the question beli failed to? What should be done with alcoholics -slash that- What should be done with ANYONE that has been convicted of a DUI?
well a totally different issue. someone makes a choice to get drunk and then get behind the wheel of a car. (ok pedophiles make a choice too) should we feel sorry for them because they can't control their drinking? i think not. they should be held accountable for thier actions. i tend to want to be forgiving. i want to give people a second chance. ok you screwed up, pay your dues, and then back for a second chance in society. but i think that if it was my family member that was hurt/killed by either a drunk driver or a pedophile, i would be out for blood. to look at my innocent children and think of someone defiling them.....i see red. i would act on emotions.
to me, it seems like we let people off for whatever reason. i.e. i had a bad childhood=so i don't have to conform to the rest of society.
and quaker if you pick it all apart with quotes you know i will get lost again :(

[Beli]

To bring a little something else into this equation...

documentary on tv that i cant remember the title to...

quick description : Documentary follows Man found guilty or raping his daughter, upon medical investigation it is found that a growth or tumor in his brain is 'proven' to disrupt his ability to control sexual urges.

cue one extremely depressed man who understands what he did was wrong and is stuck with the guilt of it, is unable to do anything about it. Has been through months upon months of therapy to see if his 'condition' can be 'cured' each time he has relapsed.

He so far has not been able to 'safely' rejoin society. He himself cannot state that he thinks he is safe enough to rejoin society. He however only accepts partial responsibility for his actions as the medical profession have indicated that 'influence beyond his control' is at play also.

What do you suggest we do with him ?

ok this post got missed. sorry. but a very valid point to be taken up on. according to some medical experts, frontal lobe (i think that is it) damage can cause a person to not know right from wrong. uncontrollable sexual urges can be one "side effect". say they were injured in a car accident, or even more controversial, in the war. what should happen with them? i am not sure if even medication would work for these people. residential treament? as in they would have to be babysat basically