Question about Christianity

[Kat]

As a Christian, is it right to remove yourself from society in order to avoid temptation and early pleasures and so be closer to God? Or as a Christian do you have a duty to interact with your fellow man?

I'd guess it's the latter, but I'm interested to see what any Christians (or anyone else with an opinion) thinks.

This is a discussion about having with some people about a poem, and whether the protagonist is morally questionably; it's called the Seafarer, and there's a translation here: http://www.anglo-saxons.net/hwaet/?do=get&type=text&id=Sfr It's about a guy who gets in a little boat by himself - he spends half the poem moaning about how cold, hungry and lonely he is, and then goes on about how much better off than everyone else he is because he's going to heaven.

My knowledge of Christianity is fairly limited, so I'd be really interested to hear what people have to say.

Also, I'm sure I remember reading something ages ago about the Christian idea of the divine material (with the covenant and so on). I think there was a theory around this, but I can't remember what it was called or where I read it - does anyone know?

[miemio]

All I know is that platos influence on christianity (protestantism I assume) would make a retreat unacceptable. Augustin also says it somewhere, that the world is necessary for "trying out" your faith/ without interaction with the world you cant be virtous. Dont know if that helps at all

[So Warped]

Nobody really knows.

[DnD]

I dont know much about christianity, but i remeber something St. Michael, from this forum, had said in a discussion one time. he said that we have free will in order to make the choices ourselves, and he gave a funny analogy....

you can't throw a crack addict into a small room with nothing in it and tell them to go ahead and smoke crack if they want too, because even if they wanted to they couldn't.Its like with adam and eve, he can't give them free will and not give them the tree of knowledge. God knew that when he gave us free will, there would be some of us who chose to follow him, and yet others who will turn their backs on him. But to him it was worth it because those few that did choose him would love him unconditionally of their own free will

[SweetHoney]

Although I no longer adhere solely to the Christian faith as it was first presented to me, I was raised in a Christian home, and have a background involving intensive spiritual research, including Christian studies.

In the Christian faith (most sects) it is equally as important to "build up" the church (the body of believers as a group) as it is to strengthen ones personal ability to commune with the Spirit of God.

What I mean to say is that even Jesus Christ spent time alone communing with His Father to test His own faith and to make Himself stronger. Both viewpoints are considered important in the same way that you need to build a physical, as well as an emotional well being, for yourself to be whole.

In essence...God's work begins within each of us first, so yes, it is absolutely imperative that as a Christian you remove yourself at times to better the body, whether personally or for the "church".

I'm not sure this is what you were looking for, but there it is...MY two cents. *grin*

[PiNkPaNtHeR22432323]

i endured the strangest experience.. i've been raised in a catholic househood and taught how people worship the devil and chant his name are wrong...


last week while attending mass they were singing.. all in one tone, and same for prayer.. it came to my mind that we're doing the same thing we're criticizing. The person that was with me just looked @ me all weird because i just stared at the floor in awe.. i'm not sure if i'll be back in church anymore

[the squid of despair]

i endured the strangest experience.. i've been raised in a catholic househood and taught how people worship the devil and chant his name are wrong...


last week while attending mass they were singing.. all in one tone, and same for prayer.. it came to my mind that we're doing the same thing we're criticizing. The person that was with me just looked @ me all weird because i just stared at the floor in awe.. i'm not sure if i'll be back in church anymore

There's a big difference there.

[SweetHoney]

It is my experience that the energy you put out nets you the same in return. "Christian" principles suggest that the ratio is 1:10 or tenfold. Regardless of the actual percentage of any return on such an investment, the feelings/energy put out (ie: good vs. bad) is always brought back to us in like fashion. I, for one, am not interested in bringing any more negative energy into my world, my environment, or my life. Therefore, I choose to try to do only things that will bring about positive results.

You are free to select for yourself what benefits you will reap in your life. Your choice will be evidenced in what you choose to sow in it.

If going to church feels wrong to you, then don't go. I would urge you to try not to make a choice about God/Spirit based on one experience in a Catholic church, however. My personal walk has led me down many corridors, therefore I do understand coming to a juncture where you may be faced with growing beyond what you have learned to date. You sound as if you may be ready to grow spiritually. This may mean leaving Catholicism behind you. Allow yourself to seek "truth" in your personal spiritual walk wherever it may take you, and embrace your new understanding with courage and wisdom.




i endured the strangest experience.. i've been raised in a catholic househood and taught how people worship the devil and chant his name are wrong...


last week while attending mass they were singing.. all in one tone, and same for prayer.. it came to my mind that we're doing the same thing we're criticizing. The person that was with me just looked @ me all weird because i just stared at the floor in awe.. i'm not sure if i'll be back in church anymore

[TJ60]

isolation isn't the way Christianity is designed, one of the goals/missions of a chrisitian is to spread the word or gospel of our savior Jesus Christ. Plus it's based on faith and built upon the church which is a community in itself. What

"Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbor as thyself". (Lk 10:27)

if were meant to be alone, why would we have to love our neighbor? Christians are suppose to encourage fellowship.

[Grendel]

...Christians are suppose to encourage fellowship.

Hence all those fucking Jehova's Witnesses banging on my door at 8 o clock on a Saturday morning - Bastards! :@

[PiNkPaNtHeR22432323]

I would urge you to try not to make a choice about God/Spirit based on one experience in a Catholic church,





I've been to church many times and once i had that feeling it won't go away

[SweetHoney]

I've been to church many times and once i had that feeling it won't go away


I am not suggesting you continue to follow a path you have likely outgrown...I merely mean to encourage you to not give up your spiritual walk because your "church" experience doesn't feel right to you.

We are all on our own journey. Your walk will not take you to where mine has taken me...even if the outcome may be the same in the end. This is why I cannot tell you how to get to the results you seek. You must trust your "inner" self. Allow yourself to be guided by that which is IN you, by the Spirit within you that "knows" truth when it hears it. You will not be disappointed if you truly seek personal growth in a genuine manner.

Do try to be patient as you must first be READY for whatever is yours, before it will become yours.

[Kat]

isolation isn't the way Christianity is designed, one of the goals/missions of a chrisitian is to spread the word or gospel of our savior Jesus Christ. Plus it's based on faith and built upon the church which is a community in itself. What

"Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbor as thyself". (Lk 10:27)

if were meant to be alone, why would we have to love our neighbor? Christians are suppose to encourage fellowship.
I agree with you - I tried to use that quote to support my argument, but it came back at me. The argument that was used against it was that to love you neighbour doesn't necessarily mean you must be physically close to them. Therefore setting an example of how a good Christian should abandon a sinful and material life (on a side note: there seems to be a tendancy to imply that because it is material it is necessarily sinful - I don't think this is supported by the bible - but I'm not sure) is a way of showing love to fellow man.

Can you think of any way to argue against that? Certainly Christ removed himself from human company (although this was perhaps more to test himself rather than to provide an example) - so that seems to support the arguement that it's ok.

Also, I've always been confused by the line (not a direct quote, sorry, please correct me if it's misleading): "When two or three are gathered together I will be there." Does this mean that however small a group of people is (even if there is only 1) then the holy spirit will be with them as they pray, or does it mean that you need at least 2 or it's not as good?

[Jimmy James]

I agree with you - I tried to use that quote to support my argument, but it came back at me. The argument that was used against it was that to love you neighbour doesn't necessarily mean you must be physically close to them. Therefore setting an example of how a good Christian should abandon a sinful and material life (on a side note: there seems to be a tendancy to imply that because it is material it is necessarily sinful - I don't think this is supported by the bible - but I'm not sure) is a way of showing love to fellow man.

Can you think of any way to argue against that? Certainly Christ removed himself from human company (although this was perhaps more to test himself rather than to provide an example) - so that seems to support the arguement that it's ok.

Also, I've always been confused by the line (not a direct quote, sorry, please correct me if it's misleading): "When two or three are gathered together I will be there." Does this mean that however small a group of people is (even if there is only 1) then the holy spirit will be with them as they pray, or does it mean that you need at least 2 or it's not as good?

out of context that line could be confusing, but to me, it's talking about "what you hold true on earth, I will hold true in heaven"...

matthew 18:18-20
18 "Truly I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven.
19 "Again I say to you, that if two of you agree on earth about anything that they may ask, it shall be done for them by My Father who is in heaven.
20 "For where two or three have gathered together in My name, I am there in their midst."

[YetAnotherKitten]

In its basic forms it is about your belief and acceptance of jesus christ-your savior. You must acknolwedge that god gave his only begotten son as atonement for YOUR sins becuase you are eternally imperfect. You are not required to be a social butterfly..You are not required be a preacher..you are not required to do anything-- But if you can fathom the amount of sacrifice made by a perfect being (who prolly has better shit to do) that came in the form of man and gave his life to the people from his earliest years and then faced immense persecution and torture--died-and then came back again---It is thought cthat you would want to respect that and do gods work and gods will and be eternally grateful and in awe of him.


Well thats the impression i was given but it really depends on who;s preaching--unfortunetly....

p.s. i think its just that --the difference between being a "good christian" and a child of god... is that one way you do your best to change whoever you are to fit whatever your preacher tells you the bible says you have to do... a child of god takes his preachers advice for being a servant of god but knows that god loves him and just wants him to be the best of himself-- some people are just not good with others.. so its not a requirement at all.

"love thy neighbor" does not mean you have to spend everyday with them and buy them shit or anything like that.... it just means treat them with respect and kindness and humility.. know that they are in the same shit as you...

[TJ60]

was jesus traveling alone? was jesus eating alone at the last supper? was jesus alone when the roman gaurds took him? Does a church consist of 1 person only? What i'm taking from the argument their presenting is that they believe if u avoid all "Material Things" Your promised a spot in heaven so to speak. If your suppose to be in isolation and thats what jesus preached, wouldn't you think the christianity would be non-existent? Who would have spread the word? How would we know who he is today? We wouldn't, faith is hard to preserve enough as it is in the world today with churches, preachers, and missionary's how would of it existed 2000 years if we followed what their saying.


The holy ghost is with u whenever u pray, they numbers can be explained as There is power In Numbers. The same in anything in life for example, 9 people on a football field will be stronger than 1 person on the field.


p.s.
i love it when people explain religion with curse words every other word. (y)

[SweetHoney]

Although it is true that to spread God's Word to the masses one would need to confer with them, however, there is no reason that the "church" needs each participant to be preaching. Each person is considered important to the group because they have something valuable to add as an individual. There are many "positions" within the bible that require alternative placements within the "body".

There is always room for being alone to reflect/meditate on the Word of God. It isn't what makes you a Christian, but it can mean preparing yourself spiritually for service in much the same ways that fasting prepares the body for service.

As for prayer...when more people pray for the same thing the strength of "believing" is greater than if one person prays alone, therefore more likely to bring about positive results.

[YetAnotherKitten]

was jesus traveling alone? was jesus eating alone at the last supper? was jesus alone when the roman gaurds took him? Does a church consist of 1 person only? What i'm taking from the argument their presenting is that they believe if u avoid all "Material Things" Your promised a spot in heaven so to speak. If your suppose to be in isolation and thats what jesus preached, wouldn't you think the christianity would be non-existent? Who would have spread the word? How would we know who he is today? We wouldn't, faith is hard to preserve enough as it is in the world today with churches, preachers, and missionary's how would of it existed 2000 years if we followed what their saying.


The holy ghost is with u whenever u pray, they numbers can be explained as There is power In Numbers. The same in anything in life for example, 9 people on a football field will be stronger than 1 person on the field.


p.s.
i love it when people explain religion with curse words every other word. (y)

Sorry thats just how I talk sometimes.. blame society!!
--

As far as the first part I don't know actually understand your argument. Who are you talking about when you say "the argument their presenting (sic)"?

BUT

A "church" can be one man/woman. Missionaries don't always travel in packs. Their church is where and what they make it. They may follow a preset religion but it is alway someones interpretation otherwise it sounds like robotic drivel(n shit :P).

Also

Not only is there power in numbers there is security--both physical and mental. Of course at the same time there is also judgement, conflict, "group think" danger and other stupid human tricks--its not just religion. This could lead to difficulties when a person has been natured+nutured in to extreme abstract thought and individuality. God loves everyone. Even the weirdos. And people who say shit.

Of course he doesnt love me becuase I'm a bit "lost"-spiritually right now. But still I have lived this life and I know what it means to be christian.

[TJ60]

read kat's second post, I tried to use that quote to support my argument, but it came back at me. The argument that was used against it was that to love you neighbour doesn't necessarily mean you must be physically close to them. I don't know who the argument is against, but seems to be with someone/group.

each missionary's goal is primarily evangelism, church planting, and discipleship to establish strong fundamental churches. yes of course they don't always travel in groups yak, but i don't view them as a one man church. Mainly because they do alot of in home visits. quote: The aim of the missionary is to do God's will, not to be useful, not to win the heathen; he is useful and he does win the heathen, but that is not his aim. His aim is to do the will of his Lord. (Buddy Bryson)



and yak about ur lost feeling, a faith that hasn't been tested can't be trusted. Life is a battle between faith and reason in which each feeds upon the other, drawing sustenance from it and destroying it. Keep your head up.(f)

[YetAnotherKitten]

read kat's second post, I don't know who the argument is against, but seems to be with someone/group.

each missionary's goal is primarily evangelism, church planting, and discipleship to establish strong fundamental churches. yes of course they don't always travel in groups yak, but i don't view them as a one man church. Mainly because they do alot of in home visits. quote: The aim of the missionary is to do God's will, not to be useful, not to win the heathen; he is useful and he does win the heathen, but that is not his aim. His aim is to do the will of his Lord. (Buddy Bryson)



and yak about ur lost feeling, a faith that hasn't been tested can't be trusted. Life is a battle between faith and reason in which each feeds upon the other, drawing sustenance from it and destroying it. Keep your head up.(f)

The aim of the missionary is to do God's will, not to be useful, not to win the heathen; he is useful and he does win the heathen, but that is not his aim. His aim is to do the will of his Lord. (Buddy Bryson) ..

thats an awesome quote---but doesn't it contradict what you are trying to say? I mean at first you say their goal is to make a physical manifestation.. and then you give this awesome quote that proves my point... you been drinkin?? :P

I guess it depends what that person thinks "God's Will" is... ;)

n thanks....I'm with you on that last bit...

[TJ60]

to me it means don't be concerned with numbers and just knowing that your trying to help people see the light is living the life god wants you to.

[YetAnotherKitten]

Exactly.

[Scorpious]

According to Christianity you can do anything you want, including murder, drugs, molesting children, violence of any kind.... according to Christianity everything you do no matter what it is ALL god's plan. God knows your entire life before you were ever born, and it's ALL god's plan. That why Christians that are pro-life are missing the whole point, pro-lifers are attempting to stop god's plan, because according to Christianity God plans all abortions. God chose your parents for you according to Christianity, so therefore God also plans ever abortion, he knows the time of your birth and the time of your death BEFORE it happens, God plans ALL abortions and Christianity supports God's plan. So to answer your question, you can rape Babbie's if you want to, and that is completely acceptable in Christianity, so you dont have to worry about temptation because according to Christianity there's no such thing as free will. So whatever you chose to do in life, it's god's plan and perfectly okay, because god knows everything you do before you ever did it, in fact god knows everything before it happens, it's his plan...so even if yo become a serial killer, it's god's plan and god is perfect so murder everyone, and christianity has no chose to support you, it's god plan, and you are just a puppet for god that has no free will and you;re just doing god's plan, so you have no worries at all, ever...you can never do wrong, because it's ALL part of god's plan and god is perfect.


All of your sins are God's plan. "You saw me before I was born and scheduled each day of my life before I began to breathe. Every day was recorded in your book" [Psalm 139:16]
Regardless of the circumstances of your birth or who your parents are, God had a plan in creating you. God never does anything accidentally, and he never makes mistakes. He has a reason for everything he creates. Every plant and every animal was planned by God, and every person was designed with a purpose in mind. the mother who requests the abortion and the doctor who performs it are blameless. Since it is God who planned the abortion of the child (God chose the "exact time" of the death), the mother and doctor are simply puppets who are fulfilling God's plan. You can also see that all the Christians who are fighting against abortion are missing the point. They are actually fighting against God's plan, and their fight is completely futile. God is the all-powerful ruler of the universe, and his plan is for more than a million children a year to die in the United States through abortion. Each one of those abortions was meticulously planned by God, so fighting against abortion is a totally wasted effort. In the same way, if God chooses the "exact time" of death, then all murders are planned by God, and murderers are simply God’s puppets. Murderers are completely blameless. Since God decided when you would be born, and God knew who your parents would be, It means that every rape resulting in a conception must be part of God’s plan. All of these rapists should be rewarded for fulfilling god’s plan. Who will you marry? You have no choice. Your spouse was pre-chosen by God for you so that you would create the children who are a part of his plan. You also have no choice in the number of children you will have -- God has pre-planned their births. Where will you live? God plans that too. So let's review...

Do you believe that:

1. God plans all abortions?
2. Murderers should go free?
3. Rapists should be rewarded?
4. You have no free will?

Probably not. Therefore, you cannot believe in God’s plan.
It is time for us to state the truth. “God’s Plan” is ridiculous. There is no “plan”. The statement "It is part of God's plan" is one of those meaningless ideas that believers use because they do not think about what they believe. If they would think, and if they would look at the data all around them, they would very quickly realize that God’s plan is impossible and that God is imaginary.

[Jimmy James]

why wouldn't pro-lifers also be fulfilling God's plan then?

[The Inebriated Genius]

Are an order of cloistered monks that never see the oustside world, but live with themselves away from the rest of the world considered isolationists?

According to Kats original question where would they fit in?

[TJ60]

According to Christianity you can do anything you want, including murder, drugs, molesting children, violence of any kind.... according to Christianity everything you do no matter what it is ALL god's plan. God knows your entire life before you were ever born, and it's ALL god's plan. That why Christians that are pro-life are missing the whole point, pro-lifers are attempting to stop god's plan, because according to Christianity God plans all abortions. God chose your parents for you according to Christianity, so therefore God also plans ever abortion, he knows the time of your birth and the time of your death BEFORE it happens, God plans ALL abortions and Christianity supports God's plan. So to answer your question, you can rape Babbie's if you want to, and that is completely acceptable in Christianity, so you dont have to worry about temptation because according to Christianity there's no such thing as free will. So whatever you chose to do in life, it's god's plan and perfectly okay, because god knows everything you do before you ever did it, in fact god knows everything before it happens, it's his plan...so even if yo become a serial killer, it's god's plan and god is perfect so murder everyone, and christianity has no chose to support you, it's god plan, and you are just a puppet for god that has no free will and you;re just doing god's plan, so you have no worries at all, ever...you can never do wrong, because it's ALL part of god's plan and god is perfect.


All of your sins are God's plan. "You saw me before I was born and scheduled each day of my life before I began to breathe. Every day was recorded in your book" [Psalm 139:16]
Regardless of the circumstances of your birth or who your parents are, God had a plan in creating you. God never does anything accidentally, and he never makes mistakes. He has a reason for everything he creates. Every plant and every animal was planned by God, and every person was designed with a purpose in mind. the mother who requests the abortion and the doctor who performs it are blameless. Since it is God who planned the abortion of the child (God chose the "exact time" of the death), the mother and doctor are simply puppets who are fulfilling God's plan. You can also see that all the Christians who are fighting against abortion are missing the point. They are actually fighting against God's plan, and their fight is completely futile. God is the all-powerful ruler of the universe, and his plan is for more than a million children a year to die in the United States through abortion. Each one of those abortions was meticulously planned by God, so fighting against abortion is a totally wasted effort. In the same way, if God chooses the "exact time" of death, then all murders are planned by God, and murderers are simply God’s puppets. Murderers are completely blameless. Since God decided when you would be born, and God knew who your parents would be, It means that every rape resulting in a conception must be part of God’s plan. All of these rapists should be rewarded for fulfilling god’s plan. Who will you marry? You have no choice. Your spouse was pre-chosen by God for you so that you would create the children who are a part of his plan. You also have no choice in the number of children you will have -- God has pre-planned their births. Where will you live? God plans that too. So let's review...

Do you believe that:

1. God plans all abortions?
2. Murderers should go free?
3. Rapists should be rewarded?
4. You have no free will?

Probably not. Therefore, you cannot believe in God’s plan.
It is time for us to state the truth. “God’s Plan” is ridiculous. There is no “plan”. The statement "It is part of God's plan" is one of those meaningless ideas that believers use because they do not think about what they believe. If they would think, and if they would look at the data all around them, they would very quickly realize that God’s plan is impossible and that God is imaginary.


Your speaking as if there is only a "GOD" and no "devil" which is roaming the earth breaking people faiths and tempting people with evilness. I also think you have a misunderstanding of "GOD'S PLAN" The ten commandments for example are part of "GOD'S PLAN FOR LIFE" which condems murder, rape, adultry....

Are an order of cloistered monks that never see the oustside world, but live with themselves away from the rest of the world considered isolationists?

According to Kats original question where would they fit in?
The Carthusian Order is a very extreme branch of the catholic church. Which some people already see catholicism (sp) to be extremly flawed.

[Mccartney2006]

All I know is that platos influence on christianity (protestantism I assume) would make a retreat unacceptable. Augustin also says it somewhere, that the world is necessary for "trying out" your faith/ without interaction with the world you cant be virtous. Dont know if that helps at all


Sometimes getting away from it all was needed. Ask Moses.