Minimum Wage diss

[the myth]

what are your thoats

it does not directly affect me for i make 7 times Minimum Wage if my health plan is included
but something needs done about it as i struggle from time to time could you imageing working 90 hours in a 2 week pay period and bringing home $400

i could not live like that
just like to hear some thoats on it
and do not need to hear the bulshit about them being lower class of anysort i am talking about the ones who are takeing care of youngones and trying to make it not the fuckups that still in my book deserve a little more

http://www.aflcio.org/issues/jobseconomy/livingwages/americaneedsaraise_7days.cfm

[Aiyana]

I make min. wage!! and it sucks..I have four kids..i feel like i work for nothing!not only is by pay shit,,on top of that i have to drive a half an hour to work and a half an hour back.with the prices of gas it is killing me.Plus i have a van it is a GAS hog.

[DnD]

what is the minimum wage where everybody lives? its $7.15 CAD here in Ontario.

[the myth]

what is the minimum wage where everybody lives? its $7.15 CAD here in Ontario.

i belive it is $5.15 fedreal but where i live in iowa it is actualy 5.75 or something along those line

[Aeon]

7.50 calgary...i think..

i make like 9 bucks an hour but that can go up to 30 per hr if the shift is right.


(waits for hooker and stripper jokes)

[tim|away]

what are your thoats

it does not directly affect me for i make 7 times Minimum Wage if my health plan is included

[...]

Sir, you can't believe for how long I was wondering how much you make. Thank you a lot for giving me the chance to relieve that pain - it was killing me. I'd suggest you learn that the proper spelling of "thoat" is thought and ask for a pay rise.

As for my very irrational and insignificant "thoats" on this subject, there are a lot of things that I'll never understand. One of them is why people need plenty of money to be happy. Isn't the more important question what's important in one's life?
I have no idea who was talking about that mahogany floor a while ago, but wouldn't it make you sick to realise that you deliberately chose to NOT save lots of lives in the third world?
Each to their own I guess ...

[SexxiiFlaGirl]

i think that it is like 5.20$ here... maybe a little bit less. i'm not quite sure.

[hoos]

Sir, you can't believe for how long I was wondering how much you make. Thank you a lot for giving me the chance to relieve that pain - it was killing me. I'd suggest you learn that the proper spelling of "thoat" is thought and ask for a pay rise.

As for my very irrational and insignificant "thoats" on this subject, there are a lot of things that I'll never understand. One of them is why people need plenty of money to be happy. Isn't the more important question what's important in one's life?
I have no idea who was talking about that mahogany floor a while ago, but wouldn't it make you sick to realise that you deliberately chose to NOT save lots of lives in the third world?
Each to their own I guess ...

Good point tim. I just say the coolest article yesterday though on Yahoo. About a 'Secret Santa' who goes out every December and finds people in need of money and just hands them bills. Ne's made enough money now that he hands out 2 or 3 $100 to each person. That's something I would want to do if I had a lot of money. I'm not going to spend it all, so why not give it to someone who needs it.

[Calienta]

One of them is why people need plenty of money to be happy. Isn't the more important question what's important in one's life?
I have no idea who was talking about that mahogany floor a while ago, but wouldn't it make you sick to realise that you deliberately chose to NOT save lots of lives in the third world?
Each to their own I guess ...


Tim ... you make some valid points, but honestly - have you redone your kitchen like you had been planning? What about the scull you take out on the river most mornings ... Gonna sell that soon to feed some hungry kids? You know as well as I that you don't donate all your money to the poor, so before you make people feel like shit - you better practice what you preach.

[Furyous]

Speaking in purely economic terms, raising the minimum wage is a temporary feel good bandaid. Just like all other things in the business world, you're going to feel the effect in your pocket book. I know it's not a popular point of view, but o you honestly think that Wal-Mart's not going to bump the prices up a few cents on products across the nation to recoup the money their "losing" to higher minimum wage rates? The simple truth is, they will, and so will others. In fact, it can also push small businesses out of business and keep people from entering the market place with their own small business.

I've always thought that there needs to be a better approach by the government for this problem. How about rewarding the companies that pay higher with discounted tax rates, etc...? Encourage people to make change with positive re-enforcement, and you'll have no problems getting things to go through, and the hit on the economy won't be as tough. Mark my words, after the dems push through the bill, if they do, watch the prices of something as simple as a Taco Bell bean and cheese burrito. I guarantee you they will go up...

We all end up paying more for higher minimum wage, and therefore I'm against it. Just to let you know, until I started my business 6 months ago, I've earned anywhere from $600 in a year to $40,000. The $40,000 year had me working three jobs, one of which was my own small business, where I had to hire illegal immigrants to work for me because I simply could not pay salaries to citizens, plus benefits. It costs ALLOT of money for your bosses to employ you, believe me. They may be paying minimum wage to you, but the additional costs to have you work for them are outrageous.

That's about all I've got to say about that I guess. Just keep the other side of the story in mind when you're considering such matters...

[Maija]

Minimum wage goes up. Salaries go up. Prices go up.

It's a wash.

The last minimum wage increase was in 1997. 9 years ago! Gas was $1.41 a gallon in the US in 1997. Today it is $2.65 on average. Do the math....an increase is long overdue. It has not been reflective of the drastic cost of living increases.

I do agree that businesses should be rewarded for paying their employees a fair wage and providing healthcare. Wal-Mart's business practices are reprehensible. Any company that provides their employees with information on how to get welfare while simultaneously working there part-time (so they don't have to pay health insurance or overtime) should be fined, shut down, and forced to pay back the welfare system.




We all end up paying more for higher minimum wage, and therefore I'm against it. Just to let you know, until I started my business 6 months ago, I've earned anywhere from $600 in a year to $40,000. The $40,000 year had me working three jobs, one of which was my own small business, where I had to hire illegal immigrants to work for me because I simply could not pay salaries to citizens, plus benefits. It costs ALLOT of money for your bosses to employ you, believe me. They may be paying minimum wage to you, but the additional costs to have you work for them are outrageous.

That's about all I've got to say about that I guess. Just keep the other side of the story in mind when you're considering such matters...

You hired them to save yourself a buck, then bitched about keeping them out of the US in this thread? :S

http://forum.oddthought.com/showthread.php?t=6402&page=2

[Loopus]

Lets not forget that an increase in minimum wage in the U.S. to 7.25 = $15,080.00 well below the poverty mark. The prices for all products would increase as well, using that as an excuse, meanwhile the product (or service) is being made in a country where the workers are paid far less. This will only lead to a greater outsourcing of jobs, thereby creating no gain.

[Maija]

Lets not forget that an increase in minimum wage in the U.S. to 7.25 = $15,080.00 well below the poverty mark. The prices for all products would increase as well, using that as an excuse, meanwhile the product (or service) is being made in a country where the workers are paid far less. This will only lead to a greater outsourcing of jobs, thereby creating no gain.

You can't outsource Mc Donald's fry cooks ;) There is always going to be an increadible need for menial labor in the United States.

Minimum wage has not changed in 9 years. But prices still go up. It nullifies your argument above. Prices are going to go up wether there is a wage increase or not.

We might see a slight raise in prices immediatly following minimum wage increase, but they were going to increase eventaully anyway, like they already have. An increase in minimum wage is only playing "catch up" to the current cost of living.

[Loopus]

You can't outsource Mc Donald's fry cooks ;) There is always going to be an increadible need for menial labor in the United States.

Minimum wage has not changed in 9 years. But prices still go up. It nullifies your argument above. Prices are going to go up wether there is a wage increase or not.

We might see a slight raise in prices immediatly following minimum wage increase, but they were going to increase eventaully anyway, like they already have. An increase in minimum wage is only playing "catch up" to the current cost of living.

But you can get the potatoes from outside of the country (heck they probably do already) And as for prices going up, there are a multitude of factors that contribute to that, demand, price of fuel, wages, etc. The fact that prices go up can be attributed to any of those factors. Therefore a raise in gas prices - other products get more expensive. Raise in minimum wage - prices get more expensive. An increase in minimum wage does not play catch up to "cost of living" if it is still below poverty level. Argument stands.

[Maija]

But you can get the potatoes from outside of the country (heck they probably do already) And as for prices going up, there are a multitude of factors that contribute to that, demand, price of fuel, wages, etc. The fact that prices go up can be attributed to any of those factors. Therefore a raise in gas prices - other products get more expensive. Raise in minimum wage - prices get more expensive. An increase in minimum wage does not play catch up to "cost of living" if it is still below poverty level. Argument stands.


Your argument stands simply for the fact that minimum wage is below poverty level. True. It is, in fact, below the cost of living. But your original argument stated that a minimum wage increase would drive prices up. Now you are saying a multitude of forces drive prices up. :S

So as prices rise, and minimum wage stays the same.....what do you suggest for a solution?

[the squid of despair]

what do you suggest for a solution?

The popular answer in every situation seems to be get rid of Bush. I'll go with that one...

[Loopus]

Your argument stands simply for the fact that minimum wage is below poverty level. True. It is, in fact, below the cost of living. But your original argument stated that a minimum wage increase would drive prices up. Now you are saying a multitude of forces drive prices up. :S

So as prices rise, and minimum wage stays the same.....what do you suggest for a solution?

for the most part I would recomend education or trade school. Or trade specific licensing. Or unions. I do not mean to be offensive as I know there are many hardworking adults unfortunately stuck in multiple minimum wage jobs to support their families, but the minimum wage jobs I had were when I was in High school. It may just be the fact that I am in NY and even typically minimum wage jobs pay higher here (but the cost of living is higher) And I stand by saying that it would drive prices up, but I did not say that nothing else would either.

[Santo]

for the most part I would recomend education or trade school. Or trade specific licensing. Or unions. I do not mean to be offensive as I know there are many hardworking adults unfortunately stuck in multiple minimum wage jobs to support their families, but the minimum wage jobs I had were when I was in High school. It may just be the fact that I am in NY and even typically minimum wage jobs pay higher here (but the cost of living is higher) And I stand by saying that it would drive prices up, but I did not say that nothing else would either.

Here is a new word to you, and i mean this in the most respectful way, INFLATION. You are protraing a situation that is getting completly out of control, but be careful about such a statment, because you goverment officials might want you to think that way, in order for them to be able to install some sort of goverment control over prices, is that the kind of country you want to live in? there are very thin lines that once broken it will never go back to be the same.

[Maija]

for the most part I would recomend education or trade school. Or trade specific licensing. Or unions. I do not mean to be offensive as I know there are many hardworking adults unfortunately stuck in multiple minimum wage jobs to support their families, but the minimum wage jobs I had were when I was in High school. It may just be the fact that I am in NY and even typically minimum wage jobs pay higher here (but the cost of living is higher) And I stand by saying that it would drive prices up, but I did not say that nothing else would either.

Education, trade schools, and unions are wonderful things. But the world is always going to need it's fair share of fry cooks, pizza delivery boys, cashiers, 7-11 clerks, retail sales, coffee baristas, janitors, cafeteria workers, etc...

Why do these professions not deserve a fair chance at survival?

I'll pay an extra 10 cents for my daily cup of coffee, or an extra $1.00 for bread, if it is going to help someone like Aiyana (who posted earlier in this thread) feed her kids and be paid a fair wage.

Maybe I just don't see your argument. Minimum wage goes up. Prices go up. It's still a wash. Prices go up at any time for any reason....why not at least it be for a good reason this time...and not lining some corporate CEO's pockets?

[baldfuck]

In the UK the minimum wage is £5.05 (= $9.5US). Its £4.25 if you are under 21.


Have I misread your posts? In the US the min wage is $5.15? That's terrible, but I guess it depends on what you can get for it. In the UK a loaf of decent bread costs about £1.00. A litre of milk about £0.80. In the US I believe the cost of living is lower.

I think our min wage sucks. £5.15 for an hour of someone's life is an insult, no matter what their skills or education are.

I think the those who earn silly money should get salary cuts before product prices go up.

Now, my dad's not rich at all, he's as skint as me in fact, but he hangs out with people who are - his best mate is a millionaire football club owner (my dad used to play football professionally). In turn, his mate has a mate who is billionaire retail chain owner - a house hold name. This guy blew £10 million one night in the casino, my old man saw it happen. Fuck's sake man. I don't know what mega-wealth does to you and I probably will never find out but if i do i really hope I dont become the obscene sort of person who can blow that amount of money gambling. If that shit didn't happen maybe minimum wages could go up without prices bein hit so hard?

[tim|away]

Tim ... you make some valid points, but honestly - have you redone your kitchen like you had been planning? What about the scull you take out on the river most mornings ... Gonna sell that soon to feed some hungry kids? You know as well as I that you don't donate all your money to the poor, so before you make people feel like shit - you better practice what you preach.

rachy bachy, i didn't mean to offend anyone and I certainly didn't mean to offend you in any way, okay? Don't forget to breathe. I'm sorry if i mastered to offend you accidentally.
Whoever starts a thread to tell everyone that he's making "7 times the minimum wage" and to let everyone know he "could never live like that", doesn't have to look forward to a gentle treatment.

Also, you obviously missed my point which is why you had to turn a general discussion about a particular subject into a personal offence. I'm not claiming that I'm some sort of buddhist who's sacrificing his life for everyone else. Hell no, I am a bad boy too and I'm not better than anyone else.

I'll try to rephrase my point for you, young lady.

To me it's not the money that makes me happy, it's the valuable moments like spending time with my niece who's messing with my shirt with finger paint. I do care to be selective as to what I buy and I don't buy useless crap that I don't need. Hence the scull - I love rowing. Other people have a passion for records or horses. There's nothing wrong with that as long as you keep the balance. All of us are living in a society with high living standards - we wouldn't have access to the internet if we had no money for food. What I mean to say is that I care to be aware that i'm in the lap of luxury - when i say luxury I'm not talking about the mahogany floor I'm talking about those things that we shouldn't take for granted. Why am I here? Why do I have all this crap? Isn't it natural to feel the need that we have to give something back to those that weren't lucky.

Sure I can't live from water and air which is why I've said that I'm not better, but my silly little mind tells me that those who have a bit more shouldn't stand up to tell everyone how much they have just to make them "feel like shit".

Do me a favour and stay on subject. Drop me a PM if you want to discuss personal things. I care to keep this thread clean.

-Tim

[the myth]

Whoever starts a thread to tell everyone that he's making "7 times the minimum wage" and to let everyone know he "could never live like that", doesn't have to look forward to a gentle treatment.


i started the thred to be a serious diss and every one but you has took it that way all knowing dickhead

i was never braging about what i made as i make barley middle class whith me and my wife working full time jobs
i was pointing out that even what i make it is hard to make it let alone on 5.35hr

and i look forward and need no gentle treatment from you
dickhead

[Furyous]

You hired them to save yourself a buck, then bitched about keeping them out of the US in this thread? :S

http://forum.oddthought.com/showthread.php?t=6402&page=2

You're right, I did. I think you completely missed the point of my post. if you go back and read what I said earlier, I COULDN'T AFFORD to hire citizens. That's what I'm getting at here. I owned a landscaping company, in order to hire someone who was knowledgeable in the field, you're looking at no less than $12-$15 an hour. The problem with raising minimum wage comes full circle again. Now that the minimum wage earners are making more, your skilled laborers are going to want more.... It's a pretty nasty cycle. I'll be the first one to tell you that the Mexicans I hired worked their butts off for $8/hr. They worked circles around me and my partner, and we owned the business! It's not that I don't like Mexicans, as a matter of fact I have many close friends who are Mexican, but living in California, I'd expect you out of all people to understand the costs behind illegal immigration. For Gods sake, your state almost went bankrupt a couple of years ago, and much of the problem was healthcare etc. for illegals that the state pays for. That's a different post anyway...

The point is, you're not going to stick it to the 'big corporate machine" by raising the minimum wage! As a matter of fact, they're going to stick it to YOU! They'll make their money one way or another, it's actually the middle class that will feel the hurt more than anything else, at first, then as the prices rise, the lower class will be shafted again. It's a temporary relief, and a typical Democrat solution. AND, it's not only ten more cents for your coffee, it's 10 cents a gallon more for gas, 10 cents a loaf of bread.... You start adding up the 10 cents everywhere and no one ends up ahead.

You want to make a difference in big business? Start going after the CEO's who are making $30 Million a year! That's ridiculous, is anyone really worth $30 Million a year? That's where you need to start. Corporate corruption is pretty ridiculous these days. Start at the top, fix the problem. Don't put a bandaid on it just to make yourself feel like you helped put an extra loaf of bread on some minimum wage earners table. That extra loaf will only be around a year or so before the prices have all been manipulated to compensate for the loss felt by the corporations.

[Calienta]

Ah tim don't worry - I only jumped on you cos you mentioned how somebody was buying mohogany flooring, and seemed to be putting them down for choosing pretty floors over feeding some children. (f)

[Psychostyle]

i started the thred to be a serious diss and every one but you has took it that way all knowing dickhead

i was never braging about what i made as i make barley middle class whith me and my wife working full time jobs
i was pointing out that even what i make it is hard to make it let alone on 5.35hr

and i look forward and need no gentle treatment from you
dickhead


you make 30$ an hour? doing what? i consider myself lucky enough to make almost 3 times the min wage, and my job aint easy.

[Aiyana]

Well I hope this will be a good leason to keep you young kids who come on here is school.I make min. wage now because when I was younger I made some bad choices.I dropped out of school when I was really young got married and started a family.at to YOUNG of and age.I was 16 when I had my first kid who passed away at three months.then I got preg again when I was 17...she is now 14.
and because I did not do the right thing like stay in school and get a trade I am stuck where I am.I work at Petco and wash dogs asses all day.
My kids never have b-day parties or even gifts half the time because we don't have the money.They are used to it so they are happy with just getting to have a friend or 2 sleep over.My oldest just turn 14 about 2 weeks ago.I bought her a winter coat for her birthday and thats it!(the other kids have there's from last year and there zippers are broke)and it was 30$ from walmart.My 2 year old turned 2 last month,,,she got nothing.
X-mas is soon and I am sure the baby won't be getting nothing.and my kids can get one big gift(that is what we call it)up to 40$.To most of u guys that's not shit but to my family that is alot!
Now lets talk about my apartment.I live in a SHIT HOLE!I pay 800$ a month in the worst end of town.I have panaling.I hate it!I have a hole that rotten in my bathroom that hold mold.the floor is rotting in there also and is soft.OHHH I can go on and on ,but I think you guys have the point.We NEVER have friends comeover because we don't want people to know how we live.Most things we have a hand me downs except for the crap we got from rent a center.
oh ya one last thing.Today we had or power shut off so I had to use the rent money to have it turned on the the kids don't freeze.The rent money was for this month because we have not even paid that yet.
The point of this was that it is my own fault I have to live the way I do or even the kind of jobs I get.So even your choices you make when you are young can affect you for the rest of your life.STAY IN SCHOOL!and learn a trade.

[the myth]

you make 30$ an hour? doing what? i consider myself lucky enough to make almost 3 times the min wage, and my job aint easy.

i am a journeyman union roofer for local #142

and i make 23.26 an hour on check but i also recived health,dental,penison plan and some other worthless shit that comes to just over $7 a hour
i also put in only 16-1800 hours a year whith 200 or so being in overtime during summer months
meaning i sit home quite a bit as i am now


i am not real sure what you do for a living p-style but if you are working that hard and not being paid for it you really need to cheak out the unions in your area as anyone whith a decent head and are not afraid of work and are willing to work for it can make damm good money in a union

i few postings that are on my unions website there are many others just look into them and apply youself and good things will always come
or so i am told

Seattle, Washington
Roofers and Waterproofers Local 54 Seattle, Washington is in search of a Journeyperson experienced in commercial flat work, hot tar and single-ply. Lots of work with a total package of $35.78/hour.
For Information Contact:
Business Manager Bill Kemble, Roofers Local 54
2800 First Avenue, Room 105, Seattle, Washington 98121
Phone: (206) 728-7654, E-mail: roofers54@qwest.net

Commercial Roofers Needed
Roofers and Waterproofers Locals 123 and 317 covering the New Orleans, Baton Rouge, Gulfport and Biloxi, Mississippi Area are seeking qualified commercial roofers. This is an opportunity for energetic roofers to have career growth opportunities, earn good wages and have a guaranteed health and welfare plan and pension benefits. All contacts will be kept confidential. Drug free workplace an EOE.

Hudson, New York
Roofers and Waterproofers Local 241 Albany, New York is in need of experienced roofers in the Hudson, New York area.
For Information contact:
David Fribourg, Business Representative, Roofers Local 241
890 3rd Street, Albany, New York 12206
Phone: (518) 489-7646, Fax: (518) 489-5857

[hoos]

you make 30$ an hour? doing what? i consider myself lucky enough to make almost 3 times the min wage, and my job aint easy.

Hell I wish I was making $30 an hour. 50 wks. work would earn me $60,000/yr before taxes. That's def. middle class. Hell that's upper-middle class to me. I mean wow, after taxes about... 42-43k a year. With two working full-time, that's at least a net income of about 60,000 and you made a thread about minimum wage why?

[the myth]

Hell I wish I was making $30 an hour. 50 wks. work would earn me $60,000/yr before taxes. That's def. middle class. Hell that's upper-middle class to me. I mean wow, after taxes about... 42-43k a year. With two working full-time, that's at least a net income of about 60,000 and you made a thread about minimum wage why?


the thred was about minimum wage because i was at a union meeting and there was a petition about raiseing it and half wanted to sign it and half did not and wanted some veiws on it

and i am looking at ending the year at around 39k (bad year)since you seam to be so worried about that and not what the thred is about

and just so you know middle class is 70-110 k a year
that is the avg income
i am still lower class above poverty but still broke as all hell


because I did not do the right thing like stay in school and get a trade I am stuck where I am.I work at Petco and wash dogs asses all day.



you are never stuck unless you want to be
there are always options

[Aiyana]

you are never stuck unless you want to be
there are always options


lol ya then tell me them because i need the answer8o|

[gotalot2do]

Seattle, Washington
Roofers and Waterproofers Local 54 Seattle, Washington is in search of a Journeyperson experienced in commercial flat work, hot tar and single-ply. Lots of work with a total package of $35.78/hour.
For Information Contact:
Business Manager Bill Kemble, Roofers Local 54
2800 First Avenue, Room 105, Seattle, Washington 98121
Phone: (206) 728-7654, E-mail: roofers54@qwest.net

The coast does pay, wish I seen some ads like that over here in Spokane.

...


No wait, I hate roofing, I just cant hang, okay I can't tear off.

[tim|away]

Ah tim don't worry - I only jumped on you cos you mentioned how somebody was buying mohogany flooring, and seemed to be putting them down for choosing pretty floors over feeding some children. (f)

Rachel, the point is that people don't choose to live at the subsistence level. No one cares if anyone could or could not live like that - some people just have no other option. They have to make best of what they have and I have great respect for those who master to do so. Simple as that.

Now back on subject and to Furyous, I like how you break this subject down in terms of economy. The minimum wager was introduced to save employees from being exploited, fighting poverty isn't, and has never been, the major point of it. Let's not forget that most of those people who live at the poverty line don't even have a job and those who work for the minimum wager don't have to be THAT poor. Raising the minimum wager means that the living conditions will significantly increase for a few people, it also means that an employer has to cover higher expenses. As a consequence of that the nation will have receipts due to higher social insurance fees. You correctly pointed out that small companies might be in trouble, but this is a free market economy. No one would pay more for product X than they have to unless there is a good reason for it. Small companies have had a hard time in the past and they will never be able to compete with the big discounters. Though, they offer exclusive products they specialised in for people who care about quality. There will always be a small market for that, the demand is just not high enough that any big company could be bothered to cover it.
Also, raising the minimum wage doesn't necessarily affect the general price level, as the overall buying power of the nation will hardly change. Again, a minimum wage helps to avoid employees from being exploited, not to get rid of poverty.

Over here in Germany there is no minimum wage for the simple reason that we don't believe in that sort of market regulation. The need of a minimum wage indicates that there are too many people specialised in the same line of business, it's a natural consequence. A minimum wage hinders this by not letting them understand that they have to get another qualification. Either that or they have to increase their productivity. In our opinion it's a bit too much regulation that comes with unpleasant side-effects that we don't want. However, there are other concepts to make sure that the helpless people aren't being exploited.
Sure, this is one way to see it and it's quite hard to say whether or not it's right. There are lots of theories that prove that a minimum wager is a good idea as well as there are serious theories that indicate it destroys the market.

edit:
i moved this to the serious serious discussion section ...

[the myth]

lol ya then tell me them because i need the answer8o|


my guess is there is a supermarket chain near you
right
i bet they pay near the same shitty pay
right
i bet there are always avacement opps
right
whith avacement opps comes more money

just one of many options that apply to anyone not just you

i am not saying you will make 100k a year at this but if you applied yourself to become mangement in a place like that 30-50 grand is nothing to make
sure it takes hard work and it gets hard but after a few years at anyjob you advance and your job gets easyier and easyier

point is you seam to have your head on right now regardless of your past.

and if you expect nothing then you will get nothing

expect everything and get atleast a little of what you want

set goals even if there bullshit and try to reach them and in the end you will always be better then when you started

i do not have a great past ethier
made some huge mistakes
hell i even spell like a 4th grader and my writeing is a little worse
and i got a decent job

[Asshole]

my guess is there is a supermarket chain near you
right
i bet they pay near the same shitty pay
right
i bet there are always avacement opps
right
whith avacement opps comes more money

just one of many options that apply to anyone not just you

i am not saying you will make 100k a year at this but if you applied yourself to become mangement in a place like that 30-50 grand is nothing to make
sure it takes hard work and it gets hard but after a few years at anyjob you advance and your job gets easyier and easyier

point is you seam to have your head on right now regardless of your past.

and if you expect nothing then you will get nothing

expect everything and get atleast a little of what you want

set goals even if there bullshit and try to reach them and in the end you will always be better then when you started

i do not have a great past ethier
made some huge mistakes
hell i even spell like a 4th grader and my writeing is a little worse
and i got a decent job

Hes right, im 20 i worked part time in my local supermarket for two years (16-18) when i then left college i planned to go into IT, but would go full time at the shop till i found a good job, as soon as i said i wanted to go full time they agreed and even made ma a supervisor, 6 months after that assistant manager of one department.. thats an ASSISTANT MANAGER around my 19th birthday.. on a salary of £19,000($35k approx?), and that was easy to do, turn up on time, apply yourself and use your brain and you will easily get ahead in retail

(I actually got offered a promotion to manager last week £25k a year but i turned it down and handed in my resignation, im will be jobless as of thursday ;) )

[Furyous]

Now back on subject and to Furyous, I like how you break this subject down in terms of economy. The minimum wager was introduced to save employees from being exploited, fighting poverty isn't, and has never been, the major point of it. Let's not forget that most of those people who live at the poverty line don't even have a job and those who work for the minimum wager don't have to be THAT poor. Raising the minimum wager means that the living conditions will significantly increase for a few people, it also means that an employer has to cover higher expenses. As a consequence of that the nation will have receipts due to higher social insurance fees. You correctly pointed out that small companies might be in trouble, but this is a free market economy. No one would pay more for product X than they have to unless there is a good reason for it. Small companies have had a hard time in the past and they will never be able to compete with the big discounters. Though, they offer exclusive products they specialised in for people who care about quality. There will always be a small market for that, the demand is just not high enough that any big company could be bothered to cover it.
Also, raising the minimum wage doesn't necessarily affect the general price level, as the overall buying power of the nation will hardly change. Again, a minimum wage helps to avoid employees from being exploited, not to get rid of poverty.

Over here in Germany there is no minimum wage for the simple reason that we don't believe in that sort of market regulation. The need of a minimum wage indicates that there are too many people specialised in the same line of business, it's a natural consequence. A minimum wage hinders this by not letting them understand that they have to get another qualification. Either that or they have to increase their productivity. In our opinion it's a bit too much regulation that comes with unpleasant side-effects that we don't want. However, there are other concepts to make sure that the helpless people aren't being exploited.
Sure, this is one way to see it and it's quite hard to say whether or not it's right. There are lots of theories that prove that a minimum wager is a good idea as well as there are serious theories that indicate it destroys the market.

edit:
i moved this to the serious serious discussion section ...

Tim, I agree with much of what you're saying, but have just a couple of bones to pick.

1) In a truly free markt economy shouldn't minimum wages be determined by demand for labor, and not by governmental influences?

Actually here's a quote taken from Wikipedia....

"A free market is a market where price is determined by unregulated supply and demand; the opposite is a controlled market, where supply, demand, and price are set by a government."

My point here is that a responsible, and I will repeat that for anyone who comes along and goes ape over this, a RESPONSIBLE company should raise wages as profits increase. With my landscaping business I always intended to hire people on as cheap as I could, but as profits went up, there were raises built into the business plan for the employees as well.

With my current business all of my entry level employees will be paid minimum wage, but the kicker is, I give a bonus for every work unit completed. In this case we're doing detail work on cars, and they get a set amount per car. My employees, if they really work hard, have the opportunity to increase their monthly salary ten fold!

This was the point I made at the end of my last post. I really think that corporate accountability needs to be addressed to fix this problem. A major corporation should be responsible and make sure it doesn't leave a single employee behind. I think that the government could go a long way toward making that a reality by offering incentives for completion of such programs. Higher paid employees make more wages, pay more in taxes, have less health problems.... While the government may lose some money that is rewarded back to the corporation for such programs, they can probably gain it back with the taxes gained on the higher paid employees.

I guess my major issue is that when you start to introduce too many regulations into a capitalist/free market economy, you can really throw a wrench into the whole process. The best way, in my opinion, to tackle such issues is to make it a win - win situation. Everyone comes out better on the other side. I'm tired of one group attacking another in the USA. Senator Rangel is a perfect example of that. His whole idea of reinstating the draft to get back at the rich (white) people is disgusting, and racially charged, but since he's a black man, no one dares to say so in public. While that's a bit off topic, it is an example of attacking one side to pull the other side back down. How about we offer incentives to equal the playing field? Would you rather be charged a fine every time you lit up a smoke, as an incentive to quit, or handed a quarter every time you turned one down?

Raising the minimum wage truly does effect the small business owner, which by the way is mostly made up of middle class Americans, and does very little to the large corporations. Less competition is no way to bring inflation under control and lower prices on products in general. The "American Dream" is becoming more and more of a dream and less and less of a reality as the distance between the little guy and the large corporations grows.

2) Small business owners aren't always in direct competition with large corporations. Again I turn to my landscaping business. We installed sprinkler systems and laid Sod and planted plants, go figure, in new homes. There are no major corporations in Boise, Idaho that do such work and the demand for such work is high as well as the pay. This business however is not cheap. Renting equipment to lay the lines and level the yards, buying supplies, and paying for labor is a HUGE cost. The point I was getting at is that every time the min. wage goes up, it makes it that much harder for this specific type of company to stay above water. A dollar an hour REALLY does make a HUGE difference for a small company such as that.

3) Prices will go up. It happens every time. It's a natural market adjustment. Taco Bell and McDonalds are not going to take a hit on the minimum wage increase. They will raise their prices. They're in business for the same reason I, the small business owner, am in business. To make money! Unfortunately for those of us who have worked for such companies in the past or are currently working for them now, they are a little more cutthroat and will do whatever it takes to make that almighty dollar. I believe a high wage creates pride and loyalty in your workforce and improves productivity. They (The big corporations) tend to not give a flying F about such matters, unless it is the President's salary in question, and their only real responsibility is to the shareholders, and they will do whatever it takes to maintain and or increase the value of their shares... When wages go up, either unneccesary jobs will be cut, or prices will increase. It has hapened every time in the past, and will happen again if this initiative is passed through. Mark my words.....

Sorry, I know the post was long, and I don't mean to come off as an A-Hole, but I am fairly passionate about this subject. I'm done now....

[Jimmy James]

I disagree that big corporation doesn't care about their employees. sure there's exceptions to the rules, like walmart, but let's look at some fortune 100 companies and see how many of them actually have a large amount of minimum wage employees

#3 walmart
#28 costco
#29 target
#42 loews
#45 walgreens
#53 CVS
#63 walt disney
#76 best buy

8 companies out of 100, and let's look at them all separately. walmart, yeah, they treat employees like shit. I don't know much about costco and target. loews, they make a ton of money and wouldn't be effected by a $1 wage increase. walgreens new CEO started as a pharmacist, so there's definitely advancement opportunity. CVS I don't know enough about to comment on. Disney I know paid higher then minimum wage, but florida raised their min. wage to $6.50/hr last year and tied it to inflation (it's at $6.67 now), so they might be laying that. and best buy makes a ton of money, and either way, what's an extra $5 on a $2000 TV?


on a side note, I have no education or training, I went from mcjob to mcjob for years until I asked for a promotion. I was delivering pizza for papa john's and they were going through assistant managers like crazy, hiring a bunch of idiots, so one day I asked them why they hired all these idiots, I could do the job 10x better then them, 6 months later I was a general manager, and another year later I was an area supervisor (granted the company was expanding faster then they should have). it wasn't all that hard, I just had to speak up. and for the record, I didn't hire anyone at minimum wage (except for drivers, but some of them made more money with tips then I did).

I have no remorse for anyone making minimum wage, if you don't like it, do something about it. go to school, learn a skill, or start at the bottom and work your way up. do what you have to do to get ahead, but don't bitch about it if you're not willing to do something about it. hell, most supermarkets pay their employees like $15/hr after a year, if not sooner.

[tim|away]

Tim, I agree with much of what you're saying, but have just a couple of bones to pick.

1) In a truly free markt economy shouldn't minimum wages be determined by demand for labor, and not by governmental influences?

Actually here's a quote taken from Wikipedia....

"A free market is a market where price is determined by unregulated supply and demand; the opposite is a controlled market, where supply, demand, and price are set by a government."

My point here is that a responsible, and I will repeat that for anyone who comes along and goes ape over this, a RESPONSIBLE company should raise wages as profits increase. With my landscaping business I always intended to hire people on as cheap as I could, but as profits went up, there were raises built into the business plan for the employees as well.

With my current business all of my entry level employees will be paid minimum wage, but the kicker is, I give a bonus for every work unit completed. In this case we're doing detail work on cars, and they get a set amount per car. My employees, if they really work hard, have the opportunity to increase their monthly salary ten fold!

This was the point I made at the end of my last post. I really think that corporate accountability needs to be addressed to fix this problem. A major corporation should be responsible and make sure it doesn't leave a single employee behind. I think that the government could go a long way toward making that a reality by offering incentives for completion of such programs. Higher paid employees make more wages, pay more in taxes, have less health problems.... While the government may lose some money that is rewarded back to the corporation for such programs, they can probably gain it back with the taxes gained on the higher paid employees.

I guess my major issue is that when you start to introduce too many regulations into a capitalist/free market economy, you can really throw a wrench into the whole process. The best way, in my opinion, to tackle such issues is to make it a win - win situation. Everyone comes out better on the other side. I'm tired of one group attacking another in the USA. Senator Rangel is a perfect example of that. His whole idea of reinstating the draft to get back at the rich (white) people is disgusting, and racially charged, but since he's a black man, no one dares to say so in public. While that's a bit off topic, it is an example of attacking one side to pull the other side back down. How about we offer incentives to equal the playing field? Would you rather be charged a fine every time you lit up a smoke, as an incentive to quit, or handed a quarter every time you turned one down?

Raising the minimum wage truly does effect the small business owner, which by the way is mostly made up of middle class Americans, and does very little to the large corporations. Less competition is no way to bring inflation under control and lower prices on products in general. The "American Dream" is becoming more and more of a dream and less and less of a reality as the distance between the little guy and the large corporations grows.

John, thanks for the great post, but let's pick bones rather than split hairs ;)

1.1)
We do agree that the demand, supply and prices are NOT set by the government, don't we? We're talking about western countries that don't have a controlled market. I see that the term "free market" was a bit lousily used on my side, but again, this is a basically a free market with a few regulations such as minimum wage for instance. I'll use the term social market economy if you're more comfy with it.

Let's not forget that the concept of a free market comes with a few problems that someone might take advantage of - such as cartels and monopoly for instance. Some people say a free market is lead by the "invisible hand of the market". However, others disagree and claim that there need to be a few adjustments to avoid that it's being exploited. We are not discussing markets here, we are discussing minimum wage which is why I'm going to refrain from writing my opinion down on the market theories so let's move to 1.2 quickly.

1.2)
This has nothing to do with minimum wage at all. It's your strategy to keep your employees motivated - it will pay off in the long-term. Believe it or not, but there are quite a lot of big companies that have complex programs to keep their employees believe that they don't want to lose their job. The bonus system is the easiest way of keeping them happy. The employer expects a high-quality work from his employees and it might be a bit silly to assume this comes without a bit of recognition. I like how you stressed the responsible bit.


2) Small business owners aren't always in direct competition with large corporations. Again I turn to my landscaping business. We installed sprinkler systems and laid Sod and planted plants, go figure, in new homes. There are no major corporations in Boise, Idaho that do such work and the demand for such work is high as well as the pay. This business however is not cheap. Renting equipment to lay the lines and level the yards, buying supplies, and paying for labor is a HUGE cost. The point I was getting at is that every time the min. wage goes up, it makes it that much harder for this specific type of company to stay above water. A dollar an hour REALLY does make a HUGE difference for a small company such as that.

2.1)
I've never claimed that. Here goes the quote ...

Small companies have had a hard time in the past and they will never be able to compete with the big discounters. Though, they offer exclusive products they specialised in for people who care about quality. There will always be a small market for that, the demand is just not high enough that any big company could be bothered to cover it.

2.2)
Which is exactly what I wanted to bring across. Small companies are better off specialising in something that big companies can't be arsed to deal with. You can't start your own business offering socks that are walmart quality but cost more. You won't be able to offer them cheaper, but you might be able to offer socks of a better quality - your customers just have to understand that. People are willing to pay for extra quality, the demand just isn't as high as the demand for the product with the lowest price.

2.3)
I'll follow that up in 3.1.

3) Prices will go up. It happens every time. It's a natural market adjustment. Taco Bell and McDonalds are not going to take a hit on the minimum wage increase. They will raise their prices. They're in business for the same reason I, the small business owner, am in business. To make money! Unfortunately for those of us who have worked for such companies in the past or are currently working for them now, they are a little more cutthroat and will do whatever it takes to make that almighty dollar. I believe a high wage creates pride and loyalty in your workforce and improves productivity. They (The big corporations) tend to not give a flying F about such matters, unless it is the President's salary in question, and their only real responsibility is to the shareholders, and they will do whatever it takes to maintain and or increase the value of their shares... When wages go up, either unneccesary jobs will be cut, or prices will increase. It has hapened every time in the past, and will happen again if this initiative is passed through. Mark my words.....

3.1)
What options does a small company have to deal with a minimum wage that has been risen?

- they can replace humans with machines. rationalisation, automation respectively.
- they can increase the productivity to even out the extra cost.
- outsourcing
- they can rise their own prices and let the customer bleed for the changes.
- they can accept that the profit will decrease
- in extreme cases they can change the location and/or even the line of business.

Also, your post sounds as if someone was expecting that extra money would come out of nowhere. A higher minimum wage gives some people more buying power which means they either consume more or invest more. The money doesn't cease to work. Obviously, your employees won't spend their money at your company, but there will be a higher demand for something else which means someone else is making more profit which means he has more money to spend too and so on ... you see that this is a chain reaction. It might take a while till things are balanced, but in the end there will also be a higher demand for what you offer. Either that or people are able to spend more money on it.

Sorry, I know the post was long, and I don't mean to come off as an A-Hole, but I am fairly passionate about this subject. I'm done now....

John, you know my opinion on this and I constantly master to come off as an A-hole. :) ... Thanks for the post.

[baldfuck]

Furyous, tim - thanks for both your perspectives, I found that all an interesting read. I can't add anything of substance to your dicussion though.

Ayaina, I agree with what a couple of other posters have said. Although I disagree in the first place that your wages should be so bad you cant afford to live a little more comfortably,you pobably are in a position to change your circumstances.

Did you ever check my sig? Timetable the time you spend on DW, the forum and other internet entertainment and work out how you could better spend that time.

I don't spend 40 hours a week any more but I still spend far too long and it's holding me back. That's my fault. But I think it wont be too long before I go missing from the forum for a while to make a few changes in my life.

I'll still try and play a few games tho :hidey:

[Edsel Dope]

Here how it is here where i live its 5.15 hr its going up too 6.50 hr...but guess what everything is going up...cost of a gallon of milk...cigs....even food....so now for the ones who r really screwed on money is even more in trouble and the min wage people r still where they were when they got paid 5.15...

[GankOne]

I know this is an old thread, but I just saw it, so I'm gonna throw my 2 cents in.

The arguments people have presented in this thread from an economic standpoint are ignoring a tremendous factor, in fact the largest cost most retailers/service industry companies contend with...employee turnover.

I just recently read an article comparing the two discounting giants.... Costco and Wal-Mart/Sam's Club, purely from a wages standpoint. Here are some of the numbers....

Sam's Club pays its employees an average of $10/hr, while Costco pays its employees an average of $17 per hour plus a full benefits package (health, dental, vacation, pto, etc.). Costco contributes an average of $1330 per year, per employee to retirement accounts, while Sam's Club contributes an average of $747 per employee, per year.

Looking at this, you would think that Costco's wages program is much more expensive to maintain than Sam's... not true. Costco's average turnover rate is 17% per year (costs $244 mil. annually) and Sam's is 42% ( costs $612 mil. annually).

Bottom line... Costco generates $21,805 in operating profit per hourly employee, and Sam's generates $11,615 in the same category. So don't tell me that paying your employees a meaningful wage runs your business into the ground automatically. If you look into Costco, their business plan is very innovative, and the company has thrived purely because of blue collar work ethic. There are a ton of businesses out there thriving whilst paying their employees well, so it definitely can be done.

I can't link the article, it's a subcription site. (Harvard Business Review Dec. 2006, "Higher Cost of Low Wages" if u wanna look it up)

[YetAnotherKitten]

Rachel, the point is that people don't choose to live at the subsistence level. No one cares if anyone could or could not live like that - some people just have no other option. They have to make best of what they have and I have great respect for those who master to do so. Simple as that.

Now back on subject and to Furyous, I like how you break this subject down in terms of economy. The minimum wager was introduced to save employees from being exploited, fighting poverty isn't, and has never been, the major point of it. Let's not forget that most of those people who live at the poverty line don't even have a job and those who work for the minimum wager don't have to be THAT poor. Raising the minimum wager means that the living conditions will significantly increase for a few people, it also means that an employer has to cover higher expenses. As a consequence of that the nation will have receipts due to higher social insurance fees. You correctly pointed out that small companies might be in trouble, but this is a free market economy. No one would pay more for product X than they have to unless there is a good reason for it. Small companies have had a hard time in the past and they will never be able to compete with the big discounters. Though, they offer exclusive products they specialised in for people who care about quality. There will always be a small market for that, the demand is just not high enough that any big company could be bothered to cover it.
Also, raising the minimum wage doesn't necessarily affect the general price level, as the overall buying power of the nation will hardly change. Again, a minimum wage helps to avoid employees from being exploited, not to get rid of poverty.

Over here in Germany there is no minimum wage for the simple reason that we don't believe in that sort of market regulation. The need of a minimum wage indicates that there are too many people specialised in the same line of business, it's a natural consequence. A minimum wage hinders this by not letting them understand that they have to get another qualification. Either that or they have to increase their productivity. In our opinion it's a bit too much regulation that comes with unpleasant side-effects that we don't want. However, there are other concepts to make sure that the helpless people aren't being exploited.
Sure, this is one way to see it and it's quite hard to say whether or not it's right. There are lots of theories that prove that a minimum wager is a good idea as well as there are serious theories that indicate it destroys the market.

edit:
i moved this to the serious serious discussion section ...


Just and FYI I know of lots of people that "choose" to live at that level. My dad for instance (yes I know bad example), has managed to find a way to survuve in many cities all over the US. ALl he needs is a shower, some food, a place to sleep, a bible, and hopefully (well not hopefully in my mind) some booze.

My cousin lives in Hawaii in a large tent on a farm that allows him to stay there in exchange for work.

My buddy John is currently in mexico as his aunt is down there and all he does is travel around. He needs water, food, shelter, and also booze and a musical instrument. Actually the rougher it gets the better he feels.

BUT I am living here in the lap of luxury city scrambling to pay my rent. Damn I wish Berklee was in Hawaii. I would so live in a tent. Maybe. Okay I'm not a bushman like them. But yea I'm no primadonna either.

Infact I just got a job making min wage thats hopefully 15 hours a week (if I'm lucky).

And you know what? I'm doing okay.

I need to find another job pt time to pay bills, but yea I have phone and net. I'm doin good. Infact, to celebrate my new job I bought myself a steak dinner at Applebee's (and picked up and application) when I was hanging out with my peer advising group. You gotta hussle to get your piece of pie here. I'll be one of the first 5 in line ;)

As Far as min wage and inflation goes I dont think they happen at the same time anyways right?? It would be raise wages... then much later higher prices, right??I'm no economist though but I thought I'd throw that in...

p.s. you were pretty rude in that first post hun. :P

[TJ60]

i agree i'm against the increase, most people covered my exact thoughts in the first page. It's a wash, plus it pushes more people into poverty. Just think about the people making 7.50 or 8.00 an hour...they don't get 2 dollar raise do they? it hurts more than helps.