Hypocrisy

[Timoteo32]

I was reading FTPs thread about thugging and suiciding and while I have no idea the relevance to a 16-year old virgin, I understand his point. These are people who are not playing to win. They exist merely to help someone else and what's the difference between that and slaving??? We had a HUGE uproar about people not playing to win and all the admins pointed out that's against the rules, so what's the difference. Suiciding is within the rules just like selling credits at whatever price. The ethical call is are you doing it to win or just help someone else. I challenege anyone to point out the difference, and not just tell me it's part of the game. And don't tell me you're doing it to help the cartel overall cause slaving helps the cartel overall and I don't believe for one second that the suiciders are making the final 20 in your cartel of 40 people.

(I am not an advocate of slaving, it just had to be said)

[Ramshackle]

I understand your point as well as FTP's, but unfortunately, human beings aren't "ethical" creatures by nature. We get satisfaction from knowing we fucked someone over. We also get satisfaction in knowing we contributed to the win of a cartel that we are part of—whether or not we were actually on the roster of that winning cartel. It's a pride thing.

The ethical call is are you doing it to win or just help someone else. I challenege anyone to point out the difference, and not just tell me it's part of the game.

The answer is both; they do it to help someone else, because if that someone else wins, then they win. You're challenging anyone to point out the difference, and that's what you don't understand—there is no difference. I see what you and FTP are saying, but there are more forms of "winning" then I think you might realize.

The great thing about Disney World is that no matter which way you fling a beer bottle, you almost always hit a kid.

P.S. That is fucking spectacular.

[Timoteo32]

The answer is both; they do it to help someone else, because if that someone else wins, then they win. You're challenging anyone to point out the difference, and that's what you don't understand—there is no difference. I see what you and FTP are saying, but there are more forms of "winning" then I think you might realize.

No the difference isn't both. It's been established by people of stature in this game (not myself) that credit slaving is wrong because you are not trying to put up a decent score, you merely exist to catapult others to the top of the score board. I wasn't asking why people suicide, I understand that. If you ever play GC, it's a very useful strat. I'm asking within the parameters of ethics these people set for themselves, how can you say suiciding isn't slaving?

P.S. That is fucking spectacular.

Why thank you, i almost fell out of my chair the first time i read it :roflmao:

[Puppy Dogs and Ice Cream]

this is a game about drug selling with crack whores and guns..how fucking ethical is it supposed to be? he brought up point of thugs also simple solution to that is to get more thugs yourself..

but with suiciding sometimes its hard to tell i have seen worth players call every single missed jump a suicide and thats just ridicoulous. some people tat are gunning dont have a clue and will miss jumps. this game is way slanted towards worth players anyway thats why you dont see many gun accounts win overalls. suiciding was here when he joined and started playing, it has always been here even so the restricted it to 5 loss jumps a day about 2 years ago ...i honestly wish the worth players bitching would shut up bout it and if not then make guns worth the same as vests so least gunners would have a fair chance to have an equal worth so they can gun worthers near end of game

suiciding isnt slaving cause its not boosting up another players score like selling cheap ass creds .. suicide only destroys someones score

[Kloaked Spirit]

I was reading FTPs thread about thugging and suiciding and while I have no idea the relevance to a 16-year old virgin, I understand his point. These are people who are not playing to win. They exist merely to help someone else and what's the difference between that and slaving??? We had a HUGE uproar about people not playing to win and all the admins pointed out that's against the rules, so what's the difference. Suiciding is within the rules just like selling credits at whatever price. The ethical call is are you doing it to win or just help someone else. I challenege anyone to point out the difference, and not just tell me it's part of the game. And don't tell me you're doing it to help the cartel overall cause slaving helps the cartel overall and I don't believe for one second that the suiciders are making the final 20 in your cartel of 40 people.

(I am not an advocate of slaving, it just had to be said)

You missed half of the reasoning, where we talk about who gets effected by this. It's that second half that determines the difference between lousy play and slaving.

- When I credit/junkie slave for you, I am sacrificing my worth and as a direct result of this you will be getting a higher worth than if I didn't do this. Plus you alone will get a networth increase by buying my cheaper credits either for reselling, getting a huge discount on those credits, farming me for junkies, whatever.

- If I go apeshit and start suiciding and/or thugging people, I never have an effect on your score (assuming you're not the victim.) Your final score will remain the same regardless of if I thugged/suicided the guy or not. Now, you may argue that I get you closer to #1 than you would have if I didn't do it. However, you'd be forgetting one key fact. Not only do you get closer to securing that spot, so does everyone else that isn't the victim.

So in one case I harm myself to make sure only the people I want to benefit gets the benefit (and it's an actual benefit.) In the second situation I'm harming myself to harm someone else and everyone else in the game not involved benefits from my action (but it's not really a benefit to their actual score more than it is just making their score better in relative terms.) It's not person specific. Now I'd say that's a pretty substantial difference between the two actions.

[Timoteo32]

You missed half of the reasoning, where we talk about who gets effected by this. It's that second half that determines the difference between lousy play and slaving.

- When I credit/junkie slave for you, I am sacrificing my worth and as a direct result of this you will be getting a higher worth than if I didn't do this. Plus you alone will get a networth increase by buying my cheaper credits either for reselling, getting a huge discount on those credits, farming me for junkies, whatever.

- If I go apeshit and start suiciding and/or thugging people, I never have an effect on your score (assuming you're not the victim.) Your final score will remain the same regardless of if I thugged/suicided the guy or not. Now, you may argue that I get you closer to #1 than you would have if I didn't do it. However, you'd be forgetting one key fact. Not only do you get closer to that spot, so does everyone else that isn't the victim.

So in one case I harm myself to make sure only the people I want to benefit gets the benefit (and it's an actual benefit.) In the second situation I'm harming myself to harm someone else and everyone else in the game not involved benefits from my action (but it's not really a benefit to their actual score more than it is just making their score better in relative terms.) It's not person specific. Now I'd say that's a pretty substantial difference between the two actions.


I do agree with that point, but with credit slaving you can't garuntee who's going to get the credits so really you could help another team, i've found some sweet deals before when watching the market that I know weren't intended for me. Your teammates have a chance to buy them, BUT SO DOES EVERYONE ELSE.

Suiciding doesn't just hurt the person you hit, it also hurts their cartel. In any given room only two or three cartels are really in contention for the win, so bringing those bottom 15 cartels a little closer isn't near as big as knocking the top cartel down to second.

I'm not saying that suiciding is the same as credit slaving but how can you defend a practice that isn't a viable strat? You will NEVER win personally by jumping people and losing. You exist solely to help someone else win, and that seems like an unfair form of slaving to me.

[Puppy Dogs and Ice Cream]

ok gonna be nice bout this

STOP FUCKING BITCHING BOUT SUICIDES

less your gonna make guns and vests worth the same..i dont think its viable that if a gunner and vester have same amount of items that the worth player is higher in worth...so suicides do become viable to get the player down to a level you can jump themor to help our cartel or teamate

[Timoteo32]

I'm not a top player. I'm not usually affected by this. Suiciding has never cost me an overall win. It's never even cost me a room. This isn't about my personal vendetta. I was merely just trying to point out the inconsistencies in theology about what's fair and what isn't.

The real truth is that big cartels are the ones that have tons of people and can afford to have some turn in bad scores by suiciding. The people who run the big cartels have the influence in the game. Suiciding isn't going anywhere, I wasn't under the impression that it was. I'm just saying it's a crap tactic that should be acknowledged as such, and not justified as some viable strat.

[Kloaked Spirit]

The people who run the big cartels have the influence in the game.

Clarification/Explanation on this?

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Also, may I ask how would you choose to implement an offensive feature to the game that will somehow not be used in the very same manner as suiciding? We've already done a lot to limit it, and I'm for any ideas that restrict it even further (within reason.) Just remember that you have to deal with legitimate gunning and missing targets. Then you have to deal with the ability to have an offense against other cartels since that is a part of the game (such as thugging.) Also deal with the fact that you can legitimately gun someone, win, and still have it classified as suiciding by the standards everyone else uses. If you can pull it off, I'll do what little I can to get it implemented.

Credit Slaving / Junkie Farming falls far more into the category of "Slaving" than suiciding. You can fight back against suiciders or the cartels they help. You can suicide and still make a final cartel if you've done well enough. Everyone's overall rating still benefits except the victim when someone is suicided. You cannot say the same thing about the other forms of slaving. Sure, suiciding sucks. That's why we've done so much to limit it to the point that it's at right now. However, the rest of what you said seems to be more of a result from lack of competition rather than a slaving issue.

[Timoteo32]

Clarification/Explanation on this?

----------------------------------

Also, may I ask how would you choose to implement an offensive feature to the game that will somehow not be used in the very same manner as suiciding? We've already done a lot to limit it, and I'm for any ideas that restrict it even further (within reason.) Just remember that you have to deal with legitimate gunning and missing targets. Then you have to deal with the ability to have an offense against other cartels since that is a part of the game (such as thugging.) Also deal with the fact that you can legitimately gun someone, win, and still have it classified as suiciding by the standards everyone else uses. If you can pull it off, I'll do what little I can to get it implemented.

Credit Slaving / Junkie Farming falls far more into the category of "Slaving" than suiciding. You can fight back against suiciders or the cartels they help. You can suicide and still make a final cartel if you've done well enough. Everyone's overall rating still benefits except the victim when someone is suicided. You cannot say the same thing about the other forms of slaving. Sure, suiciding sucks. That's why we've done so much to limit it to the point that it's at right now. However, the rest of what you said seems to be more of a result from lack of competition rather than a slaving issue.


Clarification: It seems like people who run the big cartels are the people who have been around forever and are friends with the admins and have a lot more imput on what happens, how the game is determined. I'm not against vets having more say but it is against their best interests to change rules that help them. the longer i play, the more i wonder why there is even a limit on how many people can be in a cartel since it seems like everyone rolls with like 3 then merge anyway, but that's another story.

Cali had a thread earlier about slaving and one solution that came up was squeezing the window so you can only jump people with 1/2 or 2 times your worth. Is there really any need to jump someone over 2 times your worth? Also talk of more negative for lost jumps has some merit. I agree the game is loaded towards worthers. Maybe sweeten successful jumps more and punish more of lost jumps?? In SofS you still lose units when you jump someone and lose. Maybe a higher drop in stamina for an unsuccessful jump??

I don't want to eliminate gunners, i even like gunning sometimes :) I just want to eliminate stupid gunning, vengeful gunning, and pointless gunning that ruin games. I think more should be done to make gunning a viable strat you can win with, but also one that needs to be done right, cause any idiot can build all presses and spew destruction wherever they want.

I also agree that you're right, there is no good way to combat credit slaving, which does indeed make it a little different from having your own "private suicide team". What about making it so you can only LOSE 5 jumps to a person in a round? Seems like there are lots of possibilities but first we need people to acknowledge it beyond "it's just part of the game"

[Puppy Dogs and Ice Cream]

hey here is a noble idea......leave the game like it has ben for last 4 years wooohooooooo

[Timoteo32]

LOL, ever constructive Tung :)

I think I it's pry appropriate that i point out I'm not mad about any of this, and I enjoy the game the way it is. I like the admins. You seem like nice people :P

This topic just keeps coming up and with increasing frequency and vehemency and I was just trying to provide an objective, non-biased view. I think it is something that would be easy to fix if people would compromise. There are ways to fix this without worthers trying to make gunning rediculously hard and gunners always bitching that the game is biased towards worthers, so there's no room for change.

[Puppy Dogs and Ice Cream]

it goes through cycles anytime someone gets suicided to death it comes up get used to it

[5150]

Treadophile nailed it. This is a "cyber" version of the dope game, so trying to evoke scruples, morals or ethics is ridiculous. I am really starting to not enjoy this game anymore due the whiners and drama that have entered, oh and commercialism, let's not forget that one. All this shit has made the whole concept turn into moronic drivel. And no, I am not getting off point with the thread. It is nonsense to even waste time on trying to force humans to act civilized, it just ain't gonna happen. People will always look to cheat, and then find a way to call it anything else, period. Build a bridge.

[seasider]

On not being able to jump someone more than double your worth - i made two successful jumps today against players more than double my worth. This was not suiciding, it was *ahem* good gunning

Any more restrictions on gunning and there will be no more gunning. As gunning is probably the most difficult aspect of the game lets concentrate on making things harder for worthers rather than gunners.

If you restrict to number of failed jumps a hoarder can suffer you take much skill and much uncertainty out of the game. Managing the hoard point is an important part of the skill of the junkie and cred selling players.

IMO if the balance of the game shifts any further towards worth strats it will be boring.

[Timoteo32]

On not being able to jump someone more than double your worth - i made two successful jumps today against players more than double my worth. This was not suiciding, it was *ahem* good gunning

Any more restrictions on gunning and there will be no more gunning. As gunning is probably the most difficult aspect of the game lets concentrate on making things harder for worthers rather than gunners.

If you restrict to number of failed jumps a hoarder can suffer you take much skill and much uncertainty out of the game. Managing the hoard point is an important part of the skill of the junkie and cred selling players.

IMO if the balance of the game shifts any further towards worth strats it will be boring.

Dude, no offense, but did you even read my post? I wasn't TRYING to make the game harder for gunners. I even stated that i think it is already slanted in favor of worthers. I said that it should be made easier for good gunners. I just think it's too easy for a moron to ruin someone's game. I'm not trying to limit how many times you can jump someone but if you're not winning, they managed their hoard point properly as you put it. Stop trying to interpret this as an attack on gunners and read what i'm typing. Gunning and suiciding are different! There are worth gunners that use it as a viable strat and then there are those cartels that spam saying "gun whoever you want. we just play to piss people off" and that's just stupid

[SNOWBLIND]

Just gun whoever you want is stupid? Sorry I just read this whole thread and that is the only thing I have to coment on, just gunning whoever you want is not suiciding, right. There are a lot of good gunning cartels out there *cough* it was fun with Odd Thomas and crew *cough*, that were there to have fun and just hit targets on the records or what not....There was no suicding in there that I seen. Some would glout, I got record for most blah blah won in a jump....oops nevermind that was me on a rare occasion....but there was NO suideing. How is that stupid, seems to me that helps randomly picking someone out cause it is random, you thug, see what they got and go for it....you jump them 3 times and win all 3 times, that isn't suiciding.

OK, that was the only thing that I seen that would be wrong towards the gunners, all the others make sense in one aspect or another, on both sides.

[tca]

Timo, i love yah man but seriously.

People i am now going to thug/suicide
-------------------------------------
FTP
Timo
-------------------------------------

You should thank your lucky stars you weren't around when SA Banjo knocked people down 30 mil in worth overnight.

Suicides are piss easy to play through if you're good enough.

[KuRtZ]

this is a game about drug selling with crack whores and guns..how fucking ethical is it supposed to be? he brought up point of thugs also simple solution to that is to get more thugs yourself..

but with suiciding sometimes its hard to tell i have seen worth players call every single missed jump a suicide and thats just ridicoulous. some people tat are gunning dont have a clue and will miss jumps. this game is way slanted towards worth players anyway thats why you dont see many gun accounts win overalls. suiciding was here when he joined and started playing, it has always been here even so the restricted it to 5 loss jumps a day about 2 years ago ...i honestly wish the worth players bitching would shut up bout it and if not then make guns worth the same as vests so least gunners would have a fair chance to have an equal worth so they can gun worthers near end of game

suiciding isnt slaving cause its not boosting up another players score like selling cheap ass creds .. suicide only destroys someones score

This isn't meant to be disrespectful, but i have seen it said a few times and it annoys me every time.

"the game is slanted towards worthers"
or
"gunners are at such a disadvantage..."

Ive played worth, and I've gunned, and personally, i think the game is balanced incredibly well. Gunners aren't supposed to win overalls, worth players are. But, as everyone knows, gunners win overalls all the time; they are called "worth gunners".

If you gun properly you can hit just about anyone at their hoarding point (say 50-60mil in A games) for the last few days. Anyone that hoards above 65mil likely isnt going to get that great of a score anyway, so you dont really need to worry about gunning them anyway. The game, and its scoring system are based on worth, gunning is an option to (legitimately) lower someone else's worth. If you gun specifically to ruin peoples rounds, you shouldnt win an overall. You should just take pleasure in the fact that you ruined a quality players round. If you gun for worth, however, you should and you can win overalls.

If gunning was made any easier or more powerful no one would run junkies and gunning would become pointless. Hell, if you know what youre doing with the game as is you can gun more junkies that you can recruit without too much difficulty, its keeping them and putting them to use properly that are the tricky parts, but it shouldnt be easy to do anyway.

As far as suiciding/thugging, IMO, thugging is legit, because its the only way to lower a machinists score, there's no sport to it, but there's no sport to machinists either as they put basically nothing on the line. I've been on both sides of suiciding. Personally, i think its shite and it should be reserved for occasions where someone has really screwed someone else over, or their attitude is completely out of line, but there will always be people that dont know what theyre doing that dont realise that suiciding is low. Its a dirty move, which is why i dont like it, but it still does have its place from time to time.

Bottom line, gunning rules are fine as is, if anything i would say to hospitalize a player after so many failed jumps against them, but then youre screwing a legitimate gunner over who could actually win a jump against said worth player, so that will never fly.

[Rexel]

there are worth gunners that use it as a viable strat and then there are those cartels that spam saying "gun whoever you want. we just play to piss people off" and that's just stupid


Any decent gun cartel guns for fun and destruction and rarely welcomes worth gunners.

Also if someone decides to hogg the records all round and protect the other junkie players then suiciding becomes the only viable option and damn right they deserve to be taken of.

Jumping twice your worth limit is a good enough suggestion though as it would protect decent gunners from shit gunners more although the flip side is low hoarding becomes easier.

I think its all fine the way it is though, the game has a decent balance.

[seasider]

Dude, no offense, but did you even read my post? I wasn't TRYING to make the game harder for gunners. I even stated that i think it is already slanted in favor of worthers. I said that it should be made easier for good gunners. I just think it's too easy for a moron to ruin someone's game. I'm not trying to limit how many times you can jump someone but if you're not winning, they managed their hoard point properly as you put it. Stop trying to interpret this as an attack on gunners and read what i'm typing. Gunning and suiciding are different! There are worth gunners that use it as a viable strat and then there are those cartels that spam saying "gun whoever you want. we just play to piss people off" and that's just stupid

Why do you ask me if i red your fucking retard post when i directly responded to one of your mongish suggestions for a so-called improvment? Furthermore nothing you have suggested so far would benefit the so-called good gunners, not that you have the slightest fucking idea what a good gunner is. Come up with one intelligent suggestion for how you can make the game easier for 'good gunners' and at the same time more difficult for 'shit gunners'. Any further limitations on gunners is effectively protection for junkie and cred sellers. How do you get round that Mr "did you even read my fucking post" ?

[Buckledmac]

lets not have this turned into a flaming session, he made a suggestion and people have responded so lets not get personal

thankyou

[seasider]

ok fair play, i take that shit back. But i still think its a shit idea

[not_a_hpa]

I was reading FTPs thread about thugging and suiciding and while I have no idea the relevance to a 16-year old virgin, I understand his point. These are people who are not playing to win. They exist merely to help someone else and what's the difference between that and slaving??? We had a HUGE uproar about people not playing to win and all the admins pointed out that's against the rules, so what's the difference. Suiciding is within the rules just like selling credits at whatever price. The ethical call is are you doing it to win or just help someone else. I challenege anyone to point out the difference, and not just tell me it's part of the game. And don't tell me you're doing it to help the cartel overall cause slaving helps the cartel overall and I don't believe for one second that the suiciders are making the final 20 in your cartel of 40 people.

(I am not an advocate of slaving, it just had to be said)

Partially pertaining to this topic......At one point I would not go into any cartel that wanted you to use their strat and no other. In my mind that was a legal multi, and if you think about it it rings true, your not really playing the game, your playing somebody elses game.


Isn't a gunner cartel that is a sister cartel to a worth cartel in the same lines as suiciding? Not the exact same but they are there to help their worth cartel win.

I didn't read the whole thread so if I'm just repeating something that somebody else said.....ignore this.

[TraPStaR]

heres a suggestion.....

medal rounds stay normal....

5-12 have different types of gunning allowed and see what works.... give it a trial run.

I run all types of strats, and i also try to make new ones.... i have been gunned, suicided, thuged.. you name it.... i never once complained... still am not... Gunning to me is fine the way it is but trial runs to switch up the game doesnt bother me.... we need to open up to new types of games, and bring in new players.... this game is suspose to be fun and just a GAME....

Discuss...